beyelzu

I realize that you understood my joke, I didnt actually know that people say that canadians are anti american. It could have been just about any country and I probably would have said the same thing. People just keep responding to that post like I wasnt joking, I am starting to find that irritating.

Ron Garrett

I think in hindsight you can inflate the argument either way. we know for sure that avoiding casualties in an invasion was the public reason given, and the horrors of Iwo Jima where the Japanese fought to the death was fresh in every commander's mind, as well as Truman's.

Iwo took ten days of carrier based aerial bombardment. It took 70,000 marines with air and sea superiority to defeat 27,000 Japanese. The island was only eight square miles, but the Japanese had built 800 pillboxes and three miles of defensive tunnels. The Japanese had to be taken out with flame throwers and satchel charges hole by hole, and by filling ravines with gasoline and burning them out. Daily gains were measured in yards ala WWI trench warfare. After five days of attacking with tanks and troops, the 4th and 5th marines only gained 500 yards, with horrific casualties on both sides. It took from 2/20 to 3/26 to secure the island. The US suffered 6,821 Killed, 19,217 Wounded, 2,648 Combat Fatigue Total 28,686. Marine Casualties 23,573. The Japanese side was worse. Over 20,000 killed, only 1083 taken prisoner. All that for eight square miles of rock and three airstrips. Can you imagine how they would have defended their home islands?

Then came Okinawa, with more casualties than the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. On the American side, 38,000 wounded and 12,000 killed or missing, more than 107,000 Japanese and Okinawan conscripts killed, and estimates of 100,000 Okinawan civilians who perished in the battle. Now you picture us pushing overland to the Emperor's palace with women and children fighting to the death to stop our advance. On Okinawa Japanese troops blew themselves up with their own hand grenades rather than be captured.

After decades in the Japan Karate Association, I understand a little about Bushido and a lot about the kind of notions of racial and cultural superiority that caused the Japanese military man to think glorious death was preferable to defeat. If we had invaded the main islands of Japan the casulaties would have exceeded a million dead easily. We would have faced at least 534,000 combat troops on Kyushu. We had already taken 110,000 casualties in Leyte, Iwo and Okinawa. The bomb was the right thing to do.

If you're interested in a thorough treatment of the decision process you can find it here Center for the Study of Intelligence-Final Months of the War with Japan

Silent Acorns

Trust me, people say it all the time! In a private conversation a few months back the Prime Minister of Canada's press secretary (who has a history of being blunt) reffered to Bush as "a moron". This was overheard by a journalist who proceeded to write an article about it. By the next day every right wing pundit on the conduit was calling the ENTIRE COUNTRY anti-american.

I'm sick of this, and I want to expose it for what it is: an ad hominum and non-sequitor to distract from the issue of debate made by intellectual cowards who know they can't defend their position.

end of rant

beyelzu

well, I have to say that the press secretary was a dipshit for getting overheard. But I dont label people who call bush a moron as being antiamerican. Some people who attack america regardless of situation are anti american however. Hell, I doubt any country is completely anti anything.

Silent Acorns

Hmmm ... I meant to type "continent" but typed "conduit" instead ... is this evidence of deep psycological trauma?

Silent Acorns

Based on what I read there, I'm more convinced than ever that the primary reason for dropping the bombs was to get an official surrender before the Soviets entered the war. I'm not saying this was the only reason (certainly casualties in a ground invasion was a great concern), but Truman probably felt forced to do something big ASAP.

Ron Garrett

Certainly the Soviets foreclosed the option of blocade, since they certainly intended to take Japan if they could. If we had withheld they would not, and we all know Uncle Joe Stalin could give a shit about casulaties of any sort. But I like to think that Truman, having been in WWI for that slaughter, genuinely cared about US casualties above all else as reflected in Admiral Leahy's memorandums announcing the planning meetings.

Sakpo

So you find it acceptable for a group of politically motivated people in a state government to do things like bar people from voting because they have "similiar" names to convicted felons from other states? And to apparently do so in a manner targeting one racial grouping that overwhelming votes for the Democratic Party? Aproximately 42000 black people in Florida had their right to vote taken away improperly either by being turned away or having their vote trashed afterward. This included men who had "similiar" names but different birthdays to actual felons, who had commited misdemeanors that did not disqualify them from voting, etc etc etc. The scrub list was clearly created in such a way as to target one group, blacks (who vote Democrat). Even if it had only gotten at actual felons it would have been evil to only target blacks while allowing white felons to continue voting. But that's beside the point, they deliberately took away the right to vote from thousands of people never convicted of any felony (by getting rid of checks and by using unreasonably broad criteria to disqualify) and it was clearly targeted at blacks. :banghead:

Hurray for Democracy

Gurdur

No, you were simply making a great and subtle joke on the sewer opinions of right-wing pundits.

beyelzu

I read your articles and I missed the part where anybody DELIBERATELY targeted blacks while allowing white felons to continue voting.

blacks are more likely to be convicted of felonies, and so any attempt to remove felons is going to remove more blacks than whites. there is absolutely no proof of deliberating targeting african americans.