brighid

Ah, yes … one could infer that if one did not actually read the additional caveats posted, or the other material used to support the position that spanking is not, by and large, an effective tool, or that one can spank (outside of the danger incident), hit and/or abuse another person lovingly and that in fact, the same sorts of arguments are used by domestic abusers, therefore there is a valid correlation between spanking, hitting, and/or abuse with violence later in life (again depending on the frequency and severity.)

I did not however make any inference about you, as you clearly stated. Nor have I ever stated that I equate the parent who employs the occasional spanking with one who beats their child on a regular basis as you accused me of. Your inference is rather subjective don’t you think? Furthermore, this OP is about Mr. Dobson and the techniques he suggests employing and therefore (although I should have been more explicit) were in reference to his position of punishment, but one you have also expressed agreement with.

So, is there really a difference between kicking your dog and beating your dog? Or when one beats a dog kicking isn’t employed? Please understand that if I meant to call you a child abuser, wife beater, or what not that I would not mince words and simply would call you one directly. The proper qualifier in your comments is “you” inferred meaning, not that I actually equated the three as being equal as I do not.

Brighid

Harumi

Since we're on the ideas of Doctor Dobson, I wonder what he feels about verbal abuse and deliberate neglect (as a way to make them more "independent").

A practice of many parents I find very frightening is locking their toddlers or infants (usually from about a couple of months to three years of age) in their room and letting them cry themselves to sleep. Another is sending them to a daycare where they cry themselves until they throw up there because they can't see their mommies. This is supposed to make them be more independent.

My mother sent my baby brother to school as a way to get him to interact more with kids. However, he sobbed every time she would leave him. When my mother tried to comfort him, the lady at the Daycare told my mother to leave and let him cry. Mom was so pissed that she took him out of the daycare.

I find that a form of abuse as well. Their argument is that it instills independence, but I have yet to see why such a form of teaching them is needed. As it was, in my brother's instance, he grew more dependent on my mother. It's actually heartbreaking, since you can hear him talking in his dreams going, "Don't go mommy, don't go mommy."

Your thoughts?

brighid

Well Harumi, it is pretty normal behavior for a child of two or three to react in such a way when separated from his parent or mother. But if you were to sit and watch that child moments after the parent leaves and he is redirected more often then not he won’t even realize his parent is gone. I agree that locking a small child in a room is abusive, but I don’t agree that bringing a child of that age to preschool/day care in order they learn to socialize with other children as being abusive, even if the child protests and doesn’t want to go. There are plenty of things that children will protest and cry over, including not getting a toy they want at a store, but that does not mean that failing to give them what they want is abusive. A child must be taught that every moment of every day he/she cannot always have Mommy’s attention, and it is good that they learn to share, interact with others and behave in situations outside of the home.

That is a very difficult stage and for most parents it is just as traumatic for them. I remember having to bring my son the day care at the same age (two) because I had to work. He cried and cried, did not want me to go, and it caused me to be heart broken. I went out to my car and cried, but I also sat and watched from an area parents were able to view the children without the children seeing and sure enough, every time he calmed down and began playing with the other children as if nothing had happened. He was also very happy when I came to pick him up, but I cannot see any harm in that situation unless the child is actually put in some sort of danger.

Children can’t always be cared for exclusively by their primary care giver, and they do need to learn independence and social interaction. I don’t think that is done by leaving a child locked in a room, but there can be times where leaving a child to cry in his or her room is an appropriate response to negative behavior.

Brighid

Edited to add: here is something about separation anxiety in toddlers:

"You've always dropped off your 1-year-old child at day care without a problem - until today. She's anxious and distressed, she's clinging to you for dear life, and she's making it clear she doesn't want you to leave. She resists the teachers' attempts to calm her and seems to want nothing to do with the other kids. All she wants is you, and she screams and cries every time you try to walk out the door. Finally, you make one last attempt to comfort her and head to the car, feeling guilty, upset, and confused. And the same scenario plays out every day for the entire week.

Sound familiar? If so, then your toddler is experiencing separation anxiety, a normal phase of childhood development. But even though it's perfectly normal, it can be extremely unsettling for parents. Understanding what your child is going through and having a few coping strategies in mind can go a long way toward helping both of you get through it."

http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotion...n_anxiety.html

nermal

I was also arguing against your sources since only one seemed to make "spanking" a distinct category (the 3 times a week quote.) The others spoke of "hitting" and "abuse" and left the inference toward spanking up to the reader. One need not infer that these articles are referring to spanking at all (I would qualify myself as authoritative) but my contention is that many people make the link and use such research to buttress their position that spanking is harmful. I interpereted your categorical equivilancy statement I emphasized in my previous cite to mean you were among those people.

Clearly we understand each other better, and find we agree for the most part. I, however, do not only justify spanking as a response to self endangerment, I also include abject defiance and the inefficacy of other disciplinary techniques in the face of it as another justification for spanking. I would be willing to say at this point that those are the only two instances where I would spank a child.

Indeed it is, although it spun into a spanking debate when I ineliquently and baitingly responded to statements that spanking was wrong.
Furthermore, I don't agree with Dobson in general. I absolutely do not use any implements (spoons, belts, switches, etc.) to spank. I think that is wrong. It is far too easy for a spanking to become a beating when using such things.

No, there isn't. They are categorically equivilant. That was my point.

Let's look at your sentence again (this is off topic, but grammar is really fun):

What has always struck me about the “loving” argument of spanking, hitting or abusive behavior is how this same argument is later used in domestic violence situations in adulthood!

Let's change two elements in the category:
What has always struck me about the “loving” argument of time-out, scolding or abusive behavior is how this same argument is later used in domestic violence situations in adulthood!

Doesn't make sense anymore does it? Unless, of course, one believes "time-out" and "scolding" are in the same category as abusive behavior. But no serious person believes that, so you can't make a categorically equivilant statement like this.
Some people do believe that spanking is categorically an abusive behavior, and would agree with the first sentence entirely while deriving exactly the same meaning I did.
This is why I inferred what I did. You want to make it my "choice" with the "you" statement, but it is not. I read the sentence as written.

Ed

Claudia

I completely agree that "time out" can become abusive. When I used it on my kids, they always had authorization to come back by their own decision. No locked doors! If they decided to come back before they had calm down , It was"you still need a little more time in your room, come back later (and it was in their room, where their toys or books were available). I have always tought important to give them some control even in this matter (supervised control).
They have had the occasionnal (rare) swat on the butt in danger situation (run away on parking lot) when they still had diapers. But I never considered it as a punishment, it was more a fear reaction from myself, and I considered myself guilty to have let them the occasion to act that way.I never needed it again after the age of 3.

I do not consider either as completely non pedagogic to let the kids know that when they angry their parents too much, they can loose their temper. But in the same time, parents must show that in these cases, they do not become really violent!
I remember my mother snapping my son once (and not strongly). He was 5, and at the age where he tried swearing he did not understood at home. He called my brother by a really bad name which was also insulting for my mother. It has been the only occasion she snapped him, he has never sweared at home again.

Now my kids will be 18, 15 and 11 in few days. Up to now, I have never had any behaviour problem with any of them (same for teachers, sport coaches...), and they have very different personnalities. Of course, they have needed punishment from time to time, but it didn't (need to?) involved physical punishment.

With them, humour and "I trust you, until you show me that you do not deserve it" have been very efficient as bad behaviour prevention.

I also always let them some freedom of affabulation. I have always differentiated between "not telling the truth" which covers affabulation, telling stories and outrageous jokes (they do not try to make us really believe it) and "lies" (they intend to make us believe). That way, when they wanted to lie (very obvious when they were young) I had the possibility to say "OK, you have telled a story, now tell me what happened for real". They had the possibility to correct their behaviour and "save face", and as a result they are now very trustworthy.

The basic principles I enforced are:
-no violence against weaker persons
-try to avoid violence against strongest people (they quickly learn from themselves that it is u-do not fear to report problems quickly, even if you are responsible of them, it is often possible to repair if we react quickly.sually ineffective)

The only occasions when I let them have marginally violent behaviour are in sibbling fights. As I have seen from my generation behaviour and their own that fights are usually less violent when they do not expect parents to stop them. So it was: "you are too noisy, please go and fight far away". And they are really friends now, even if there are still light fights between the boys (the youngest).


blondegoddess, my reaction of one of my sons had done that would have been to give the Play Station to a caritative association if we had bought it, or remove it for a very long time if they had bought it themselves or if it had been a present from some one else. But every kid is different, and by no mean do I say that you should have acted that way. It is the real difficulty of parenting, that every parent has to reinvent the ways of controlling thir own child, which are not the ways of other parents. Even more difficult when they reach the age of 10, because there is already a long history of parents/kids relations, and people (parents ank kids) build their acts on the way they think/know the other will react.
Kids learn very quickly to push parents' buttons. I have tried to highlight so strongly the trust button that they forget that may be I have others .

Claudia

And I have security electric sockets, no toxic plant at home when they were young, my oven door does not burn and i turn the pan's tails towards the wall .

Harumi

What about the disciplining of a spoiled child, who doesn't listen to any authority other than physical punishment?

At times I am seriously tempted to wallop my two-year-old brother. He enjoys ruining things and putting himself in danger despite our repeated warnings. Because he's so active, it's hard to keep track of him, especially when I'm busy with schoolwork, and my mother's always ill. When something bad does happen to him (through his own actions), he usually forgets it and continues with the behavior anyways.

We've used threats (the police will come and lock you away!) to appeasement (we'll give you a toy if you're quiet) but he's bright. Almost too bright. He knows we'll give him the toy eventually so he ignores appeasement, and he can see through the threats so he gives us a little giggle and does it anyways.

I really don't like spanking or physical punishment, but he's at the age where you can't reason with him, and at some point he's going to hurt himself and we won't be there to save him.

Any advice?

The Other Michael

Hi Claudia,

That's just good common sense for all households - I make a habit of that and my house is quite child free (thankfully).

cheers,
Michael

brighid

Unfortunately, your brother has been taught that you won't call the police and that he will eventually get what he wants. So why would he listen? You cannot threaten a child with unrealistic consequences that you cannot follow throw with AND expect that eventually he will not catch on. It seems he already has.

(IMO)Spanking will unlikely help the situation and will most likely only exaserbate his already unruly behavior. I would personally suggest reading some books about normal childhood behaviors and how to address them with age appropriate, positive responses. I have found "Touchpoints" by T. Barry Brazelton very helpful, concise and easy to follow. That advice helped me a lot when my son was that age and exhibiting typical two year old behavior (like bitting).

You may also want to try redirection when you see him about to get into some trouble. He may also need more physically and mentally stimulating activities to keep that brain challenged so he doesn't get bored and in trouble (although the attention span of ANY two year old is pretty short.)

If you are spanking a child out of frustration because nothing else is working you should take that as a sign to stop and think. Even in dangerous situations a non-violent solution can be found. Explain to him why he shouldn't do things, but also be sure to show him the right way to behave.

You have, in other discussions, discussed some of the physical violence you have suffered and I find it highly unlikely that this does not have some efect on your baby brother, as exhibited in his behaviors.

Read through some of the links I provided. I think they will help.

Brighid

brighid

Nermal,

I wanted you to know that I am not ignoring your post, but I have been very busy and I am not sure if I will be able to give your response the attention it requires until later. My sweet, 100 lb Dobie decided he was going to be sick ALL over our home and well ... you can imagine what kind of "presents" a dog that large leaves when he is sick

But I wanted to thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully respond to my other posts.

Brighid