Abel Stable

It seems that for Keith, morality can only exist with the threat of severe divine punishment. If Hell (or Heaven) does not exist, then there couldn't possibly be a reason to even form a moral code. Even if (in that afterlife-less scenario) god created a moral system, why bother following it if there wasn't the threat of eternal suffering (or eternal paradise)? So it doesn't really matter what god says we should do. Just follow the orders & be prepared to do anything he asks, no matter how you may feel about it

If he exclaims: "Rape your sister and then burn her alive for me," well brother, you'd better do what he says! Who are we to question god? If on Monday god says to firebomb an orphanage and on Tuesday god says to volunteer at a soup kitchen...both those acts are equally good. If god decides to give special rules to your neighbors, and then give opposing ones to you, they are both correct.....just check the expiration date to make sure your particular edict of morals doesn't spoil before you're aware. Seems like a rather chaotic system.

The moral systems that Mageth & Paien have repeatedly outlined deal with humans & social interaction, and have results we can see, measure, and understand........your godly morals are handed down by an invisible ruler who won't even tell us the reasons for his decisions.

Abel Stable

Let me expand a little on this before I'm misunderstood. We'll take the popular example of Nazi Germany. We could sit down with a member of the Nazi party or a supporter, discuss their morals, and come to understand why they decided upon them. We can also ask questions like "Why do you suppose Jews are such a menace?" & "How are you so certain they are inferior?" & "How do you figure genocide will solve problems?" This is how morals develop- through social interaction. Humans are not perfect & will never have a perfect moral code...but we are striving for it, and I honestly believe that everybody wants to live in harmony with oneanother. It may not be possible, but we're trying, and that's worth something.

Now, in the case of objective morals handed down by god....there is no questioning them, no matter how destructive or arbitrary some may seem. We can only assume they are all correct. If people are harmed by following god's moral laws, we can only assume (1) god wants them to suffer, or (2) there is a higher plan, which he is keeping secret from us for an unknown reason.


I'd write more now, but its almost time to close up, and I guess I should be finishing some work...thats what they pay me for anyway. Is wasting time on a discussion forum immoral or unethical? Actually, I think its just lazy.

Keith

Well, lazy or not, I'm happy for your participation in this discussion.

Keith

When I called myself an atheist, I was fearful of the God I claimed didn't exist. I viewed God's moral law with contempt because I knew that I could never adhere to His law. How could I? What mattered to me was my freedom to do my own thing, which was quite often things that religious people called "sins". Besides, Christianity was boring to me in many ways, and it seemed so ridgid.

When God regenerated me (caused a spiritual change which made me willing to believe in, and trust Him), I began to see how patient, loving, forgiving, and generous God is. And, for the first time, I began to see myself as a sinner who needed to be forgiven. My old image of an angry, judging and vengeful God disappeared. I saw God's goodness and kindness so clearly that I was ashamed at the way I had viewed Him as an atheist.

Keith

Do God's commands really seem so evil and capricious to you? Isn't it true that God does great things in addition to the kinds of things you don't understand--and object to? Here's a better question...if God existed as a nice old sugar-daddy, and he never laid any rules on us, never set an example for us...lawlessly allowing every crime: murder, theft, rape, and every oppression, would you seek him, would you respect him, and would you turn to him for anything--even in the worst hardship?

Keith

No, I'm not saying that.

Keith

No, and no.

Well, I don't think "believes" is the best word to use, but in some sense, on some level, everyone knows the God of the bible, and they know of God through the creation, and from the law that is "written on their hearts."

Pain Paien

I'm not the "standard" of anything. I am an example, however, of a failure of your view of reality. Nor am I the only example, there are literally billions. Obviously, if your Christian god wishes humanity to know him, but some do not, then he is obviously not all powerful.

You do if you wish to support your belief that god is not arbitrary. If there is no significant difference that distinguishes the Israelites from other people then the command is arbitrary. Oh, and to clarify: god didn't deem it necessary: he doesn't exist. The point is trying to get you to see this by attempting to make you see the world rationally.

Apparently you are not aware of what the world pragmatic means. It was not pragmatic, for Hitler or for anyone else, to gas the Jewish people. The resources he wasted in doing this, in part, lost him the war. He did it for irrational beliefs (one might even call them religious). By his view it may have been moral, but under neither his or your own system does morality have to be in any way pragmatic.

Your last comment reveals such astounding obtuseness that I can barely manage to comment. It has been explained over and over again, but you have never failed to misunderstand. It is such an extremely elementary and simple concept that I would be at complete a loss for an explanation if I weren't aware of the mind-closing effects of religion.

Now, please try to understand: the concept works on two levels, the first being the practical and the second being the intuitive. The practical reason is that, if a moral system is put in place where killing people is wrong, and everyone agrees to it, no one will get hurt. Now, it's easy to reach this practical solution because of the intuitive level, empathy. People, by nature (if they are mentally healthy individuals), can understand the feelings of others because they can relate to them on a personal basis. Perhaps you, as a Christian, cannot understand this concept of empathy because it does not call for invoking a mythical deity, and hence your difficulties.

Pain Paien

Obviously in your view you are the final authority on such things, and we should accept them merely on your say-so. Fortunately, neither reality not any other human being has to rely on such a ridiculous standard. The fact that there are billions of people who obviously don't have this law "written on their hearts" would convince you that you are incorrect, if only your belief was based anywhere in the realm of rational thought.

Pain Paien

This quote alone would make it abundantly clear, even without everything else you've said, that you do not really possess "morality", just a belief in god. Since, according to your beliefs, absolutely nothing is wrong except disobeying god, you don't have a moral system, you just have submission to power. Packs of wolves have that, too, but in their case they submit to real beings, and not fantasy-beings, so their system has much more practical application.