Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Biff the unclean · 08-08-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine
Through science we can only ever hope to answer how (if that), it can never answer why, and like it or not, religion IMO comes closer to answering why, which in most peoples minds is most important.

The problem here is that while religion does give an answer to WHY the answer it gives is fake. It's just made up--a piece of fantasy. No one has investigated, no one has evidence, no one has any proof. The answer given is only a fiction, sprong from someone's imagination. Which makes it useless.
You don't need an answer to WHY you need a CORRECT answer. And faith based religion has no means of offering you that

JusticeMachine · 08-08-2003, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
The problem here is that while religion does give an answer to WHY the answer it gives is fake. It's just made up--a piece of fantasy. No one has investigated, no one has evidence, no one has any proof. The answer given is only a fiction, sprong from someone's imagination. Which makes it useless.
You don't need an answer to WHY you need a CORRECT answer. And faith based religion has no means of offering you that

Life is faith based. A single mind can not comprehend reality or truth. All of our beliefs are base on the faith that the sources they come from are true/correct/right, and most of those sources are running on the same faith I am.

Just an off subject (may be I will start another post for it) but I don't think that athieism will every be a world belief, for the very fact that it can't explain everything. Where there if lack of information for a natural reason, (which there will always be) people believe in the supernation, by default. I laugh at howmany of the people here on this site aruge against Judo-christian religions from an athiestic point of view, but believe in things like wicca, new age crystal crap, astrology and others. They seem to band with athiest only for the reason that they share the same hate of christians and the established church. They are the wolf in athiest clothing, showing me that a true athiest if rare thing, and IMO will always be.

Armchair dissident · 08-08-2003, 03:04 PM

Quote:

If the march of science if the supreme purpose of life, then maybe religion is bad, depending on the religion. But if there is no supreme purpose to life, then who is to say that some lose is worse that others short of the small sect of people who wanted the specific gain that they were denied?

I'm not stating a point of view from some mindless march of science. What I'm stating is: If there is no god, but you, as a theist, resist an area of science based upon a belief in a god, that could have resulted in the betterment of mankind, then mankind has lost as a result of your theism. At no point does science - according to my argument - become the "supreme purpose of life", it simply becomes a tool to better the lot of mankind. A tool that can be blunted by the theism.

Quote:

If this is a correct statement then I would choose a religion, because if it is right then I am covered, if it isn't then I am in the same boat as an athiest, but if I am an athiest, then I have not chance of a good out come if any of the religions are correct.

You're covered iff the religion you choose is the correct one. This assumes that: you've chosen the right god, or pantheon of god. You've chosen the correct manner to abide by the laws of the correct god, or pantheon of gods, and that you interpret those laws in a manner consistent with the intentions of that god or pantheon of gods.

Given the number of gods - that's a big gamble. And, of course, sounds suspiciously similar to Pascals Wager.

JusticeMachine · 08-08-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

I'm not stating a point of view from some mindless march of science. What I'm stating is: If there is no god, but you, as a theist, resist an area of science based upon a belief in a god, that could have resulted in the betterment of mankind, then mankind has lost as a result of your theism. At no point does science - according to my argument - become the "supreme purpose of life", it simply becomes a tool tobetter the lot of mankind. A tool that can be blunted by the theism.

Betterment, better.....better than what. Again, betterment implies purpose, please tell me what this purpose is.

Biff the unclean · 08-08-2003, 03:29 PM

Life is faith based.
That sounds so loony that I must be misunderstanding what you mean. Please straighten me out.
A single mind can not comprehend reality or truth.
This sentence negates what it says.
All of our beliefs are base on the faith that the sources they come from are true/correct/right, and most of those sources are running on the same faith I am.
Here in American there are things called "Tall Tales" They are a class of folk tale based on the outlandish. Never meant to be believed. So if you ask "Why is there a Grand Canyon" I can give you an answer based on these tall tales. I can answer that Paul Bunyon, the giant lumberjack, had a giant pet ox named Babe. One day Babe was digging with his hoof for acorns and that's why the Grand Canyon exists. And I know it because I believe in Paul.
Other than for amusement value this answer is completely useless to you in understanding reality.
Your God is a Tall Tale.

Just an off subject (may be I will start another post for it) but I don't think that athieism will every be a world belief,
First Atheism is the lack of a belief and not a belief itself. But if you are talking popularity you'll find that it's numbers are very high, and growing.

for the very fact that it can't explain everything.
Because Atheism isn't a something it's the absence of a something.
Where there if lack of information for a natural reason, (which there will always be) people believe in the supernation, by default.
Only ignorant people. Hopefully higher standards of education will end this sorry plight.
They seem to band with athiest only for the reason that they share the same hate of christians and the established church.
This is an Infidels site. These people are also Infidels and like Atheists share a history of oppression by Christians
They are the wolf in athiest clothing, showing me that a true athiest if rare thing, and IMO will always be.
Well you have a true Atheist here boy-o. And, by the bye, that's with a capital "A" and an e before the i if you please.

Biff the unclean · 08-08-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JusticeMachine
Betterment, better.....better than what. Again, betterment implies purpose, please tell me what this purpose is.

Interesting thing about theists is that they tend to forget that there was a time for well over a thousand years that our society was based completely on their belief system.
It's a time that is not called "the Golden Age" but goes by the name "the Dark Ages." We tried your way, we gave it the old college try and it was an utter failure. Now tell me over the internet from your air conditioned/ black plague free room how things are not better now than in the time of Christianity supreme

JusticeMachine · 08-08-2003, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Interesting thing about theists is that they tend to forget that there was a time for well over a thousand years that our society was based completely on their belief system.
It's a time that is not called "the Golden Age" but goes by the name "the Dark Ages." We tried your way, we gave it the old college try and it was an utter failure. Now tell me over the internet from your air conditioned/ black plague free room how things are not better now than in the time of Christianity supreme

Only a small portion (per capita) was christian at that time, and obviously technology has advanced since then. Which was advanced both by Christians and Atheist.

Technology is not a production of Atheism, Atheist would like to use it without moral taboos. Bear in mind that those taboos are both good and bad.

JusticeMachine · 08-08-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Interesting thing about theists is that they tend to forget that there was a time for well over a thousand years that our society was based completely on their belief system.
It's a time that is not called "the Golden Age" but goes by the name "the Dark Ages." We tried your way, we gave it the old college try and it was an utter failure. Now tell me over the internet from your air conditioned/ black plague free room how things are not better now than in the time of Christianity supreme

So judging by that the purpose of mankind is to become as technologically advanced as possible, to make us more comfortable for our 1-120 or so years which we get to spend here?

emotional · 08-08-2003, 04:05 PM

I sympathise with JusticeMachine. The scientific and technological advances have improved the quality of life, but they still leave us in a rootless position as to the big picture - the purpose of the whole thing. That's the price we have been paying ever since Galileo.

For my part I don't deny purpose, God or afterlife, but I don't turn to the Bible or the Qur'an for answers. Those texts are antiquated and have few relevant messages for today. I'm a Deist and I believe the god of the Bible is a false one.

JusticeMachine · 08-08-2003, 04:07 PM

I am leaving work now, so I won't probably post again until tomorrow.

Til then

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08-08-2003, 03:29 PM	#35
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Life is faith based. That sounds so loony that I must be misunderstanding what you mean. Please straighten me out. A single mind can not comprehend reality or truth. This sentence negates what it says. All of our beliefs are base on the faith that the sources they come from are true/correct/right, and most of those sources are running on the same faith I am. Here in American there are things called "Tall Tales" They are a class of folk tale based on the outlandish. Never meant to be believed. So if you ask "Why is there a Grand Canyon" I can give you an answer based on these tall tales. I can answer that Paul Bunyon, the giant lumberjack, had a giant pet ox named Babe. One day Babe was digging with his hoof for acorns and that's why the Grand Canyon exists. And I know it because I believe in Paul. Other than for amusement value this answer is completely useless to you in understanding reality. Your God is a Tall Tale. Just an off subject (may be I will start another post for it) but I don't think that athieism will every be a world belief, First Atheism is the lack of a belief and not a belief itself. But if you are talking popularity you'll find that it's numbers are very high, and growing. for the very fact that it can't explain everything. Because Atheism isn't a something it's the absence of a something. Where there if lack of information for a natural reason, (which there will always be) people believe in the supernation, by default. Only ignorant people. Hopefully higher standards of education will end this sorry plight. They seem to band with athiest only for the reason that they share the same hate of christians and the established church. This is an Infidels site. These people are also Infidels and like Atheists share a history of oppression by Christians They are the wolf in athiest clothing, showing me that a true athiest if rare thing, and IMO will always be. Well you have a true Atheist here boy-o. And, by the bye, that's with a capital "A" and an e before the i if you please.

08-08-2003, 04:05 PM	#39
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	I sympathise with JusticeMachine. The scientific and technological advances have improved the quality of life, but they still leave us in a rootless position as to the big picture - the purpose of the whole thing. That's the price we have been paying ever since Galileo. For my part I don't deny purpose, God or afterlife, but I don't turn to the Bible or the Qur'an for answers. Those texts are antiquated and have few relevant messages for today. I'm a Deist and I believe the god of the Bible is a false one.

08-08-2003, 04:07 PM	#40
JusticeMachine Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 403	I am leaving work now, so I won't probably post again until tomorrow. Til then

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