HelenM

Hi Cleopas I noticed your arrival here...welcome!

The following is a test of your general knowledge:

You converted DL Moody???



Anyway so as not to be shamefully off-topic ...I think what you are saying is that you do not believe it's possible to have fantasies of doing violence to other people and never act that way in 'real life'.

This just occurred to me - is it possible for people to pretend to be someone entirely other than they are, on Internet Discussion Boards or in Chat Rooms? If so might that not be a kind of fantasizing?

Isn't it possible that it's precisely because of their commitment to certain behavior in real life/outwardly, that they might feel pressured to take their 'other feelings' into a fantasy world - it's a kind of 'escapism'?

love
Helen

Mad Kally

Topic: Are reprehensible thoughts and desires, if never acted upon, immoral?

Short answer: No.

cleopas

My general knowledge is only partial I guess.. I know a little about the congregationalist DL Moody, but I'm not aware of any connection between me, or rather my user name cleopas, and Moody... was his moment of conversion brought on by reading the Emmaus story in Luke?

As to what I was saying.. hmm, well, I think the original post had a valid question, but the question became invalid when applied to the strict analogy of Casper. Also, there were two separate questions.. the first one being whether an immoral thought is equivalent to an immoral deed, and the next one was following the Casper story asking whether that scenario made him and immoral person. Neither of those questions could be answered given the scenario provided. Still, take Casper out and put in a real person, with a real life, and you have valid questions.

My personal opinion is that you can't keep thoughts separated from your self. That in no way implies that if you imagine yourself killing someone that you will likely kill someone. It just means that once a thought exists, it becomes a part of you.. Maybe there is some relative factor, in such, a fleeting thought would only be a fleeting part of you, while a frequent, in-depth, vivid, and entertained thought is something more engrained. How those things sift into your being and how they might or might not surface in one's actions is another issue. Willpower, perception of reality, character, opportunity, circumstance, number of chocolate kisses consumed, number of sex on the beach shots tossed back, blood sugar level, how bad the traffic was coming home.. and on and on.. All of those types and things and more could play a role in how those engrained thoughts might surface in the form of a deed.

Helen, are the things you mentioned possible explanations for why people pretend, fantasize, or escape into roles that might conflict with their 'outward' standards of what is right and wrong... Absolutely.. I will stand as an example and testify to the how and whys, but I could never honestly admit that my role-playing world had no impact on my real-playing world.

Just my story and my opinion though.

Peace in your journeys,

cleopas

David Gould

I suspect that my role playing world impacts on my real playing world - it could be part of the reason why I set myself such a high moral standard.

It could also be part of why I am shy around women.

I do not think that the interaction is as simple as 'think bad thoughts - one day do bad things'. People who can imagine in detail bad things and their consequences to others and who have high levels of empathy are less likely to do bad things than those people without imagination, imo.

However, that of course is a bit different to gratification from bad thoughts, I suppose.

HelenM

He was converted by a shoe salesman

Thanks for sharing about thoughts. This thread is making me realize how little I know about our thoughts and actions...

love
Helen

HelenM

Hi David

Like I said I'm realizing how little I know about this subject.

And I really hate it when other people make pronouncements about 'what is so' that aren't true of me...

Knowing what a decent person you have seemed to me, from your posts, I am loathe to draw any inferences which would go against that perception, from anything you share about how you fantasize...after all it's not information I would have about other people. So it wouldn't really be fair to think differently of you based on things most people don't share...if you see what I mean.

love
Helen

abe smith

MAD KALLY: hi, Darling/ granddaughter! How're things w/ you'Muddah?...... Altho your argument >>> that what one never reveals nor acts on [dubitable fantasies etc} are okay because, You mean? they do not have [external] effects?....Eh?I'll argue on the other side just this one & only time and say that [eh, on the grounds of my own experiences, quite a long while back now = several decades} entertaining[gerund, not participle} fantasies etc which you yourself interiorly label "naughty" can upset your own inner economy, by making you come down w/ an eruption of the guilties. It is, it seems, this psychic "fact" wh/accounts for the longterm success of the RC confessional. P>> It does flicker across muh slate, that some {WHAT, Smith?! only "some"?} fantasies etc may be/probably arrrgh PHYSIOLOGICALLY =physiochemically aroused =-determined. That was back in the Way-Out-Back, decades ago, early-on, before I knew better, when I very briefly used [legal} injected androgens. Now I know that Bright Folk Like Us don't *need* toxic inputs.e.g. grow your own endorphins, androgens, etc. Anyone care to comment?

HelenM

Hi Abe!

I'm sure you're right that at least some people do feel guilty as a result of their fantasies. Or rather, as a result of feeling that their fantasies are 'wrong'.

What's interesting about 'guilt' is that you will feel guilt over perfectly innocent things if you happen to believe they are wrong.

So 'guilt' at least in part a response to how we 'label' things. It's certainly not as simple as being an 'objective' sign of the rightness or wrongness of something.

So, to change the way we label something, from 'wrong' to 'not wrong' can rid of at least some guilt just as not doing that thing we believe is 'wrong' will get rid of it...

I don't know if there is some more 'objective' sense of right or wrong that we have...some God-given indicator/the 'conscience'; whatever. I don't know if there's more to our sense of right and wrong than what we are 'conditioned' into having.

I suppose I should be arguing that there is, as a theist. But really, I don't know...

love
Helen

99Percent

I don't know if there is some more 'objective' sense of right or wrong that we have...some God-given indicator/the 'conscience'; whatever. I don't know if there's more to our sense of right and wrong than what we are 'conditioned' into having.

I think "conscience" comes from our ability to distinguish what is true from what is false. When we are not true to ourselves we suffer guilt. For example, if I had promised myself not to eat chocolates for a whole week (an objectively innocent proposition) and the day after I cannot resist the urge to eat a Hershey bar then I feel guilt because I am betraying my own trueness to myself.

I don't see any reason why there is has to be "conditioning" at all.

HelenM

'Conditioning' might have been a bad choice of word. Maybe the connotations of it are too negative. (Or maybe it's just the wrong word!) What I mean by 'conditioning' is 'the learning process of taking in information that leads us to decide that something is right or wrong'.

So, in your example, by 'conditioning' I would mean the process by which you came to believe that not eating that chocolate was more beneficial to you than eating it.

love
Helen