Amos

Actually, free will only exist in Christianity and only and all Christians are free . . . they always were and always will be. They are free from the slavery of flesh (conscious mind) and the conviction of sin (subconscious mind).

I should add that my definition of Christian may be different than yours. To be sure, the only reason a Christian is free is because his ego has been crucified and his God identity set free in the process.

PopeInTheWoods

DING DING DING!!! We have a winner! The problem is that this statement is not unique to you, Amos. It can probably honestly be said by any xian to just about any other xian (or non-xian for that matter).

Andy

sighhswolf

Oh no....It cant be...something is happening to my brain...I must be slipping into insanity rather quickly.....I think I actually understood
a post from Amos......ok so it was only a short, curt response so maybe I'm not that far gone just yet.
I guess you could use reverse logic and say that christians are free......from the bonds of logic,
the chains of rationality...based on the "bribe of christ", me, I just prefer to say they are hopelessly detached from reality in a dream world of good begetting goodness and evil begetting evil.
A prefabricated beautiful yellow line that seperates "good" from "evil".....and there are no
discolored areas entering or leaving the zones.
Step over this line of propaganda and arrive in hell on a one way ticket.
Claw your way back by pledging your ability for independent thought to an an indefinable supernatural being and you become "saved" from the evil on the other side.
"Free will"
Ah yes, it is refered to here in this verse;
"But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me". Words attributed to the "savior"(?) Jesus.....humm.
Luke 19:27
"He that is not with me is against me".

Or maybe this verse better explains the relationship between god and man:

"For a fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of death below.
It will devour the earth and it's harvest and set afire the foundations of the mountains".
Deut. 32
I would view this as management through intimidation, a very human characteristic.
Doesnt come across as freedom in any way that I understand the concept...course I could be seriously deluded by my rational thought processes.
Disagreements are not tolerated very well even in the home of the "heavenly hosts":
"and the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home....(leaving heaven for earth, probably lusting after some human women/men) these he has kept in darkness bound with everlasting chains for judgement on the great day".
Jude 6

Free will...not!
Mental atrophy .....yes!
It's all in the perception, isnt it?
Wolf

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Amos

Well, I'll let you be the judge because I have nothing to loose.

Amos

You are correct <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

HelenM

Good idea - except, I wouldn't want that unless they could choose to moderate of their own free will.

I still haven't got it straight which one of them says "Duck!"

And if that's a third person I'd vote for giving them the choice to moderate also

I heard this on the radio just yesterday: the joke (as it were) about the man who was trying to find out whether he belonged in the free-will camp or the other one. He goes to the other one and they say "Why are you here?" "I came of my own free-will" "You don't belong here then - get over there!" He goes to the free-will camp, they say "Why are you here?" "I was sent here" "You don't belong here then..."

Well, anyway...

love
Helen

sighhswolf

Funny, I watched "Unforgiven" again a few days ago
and it cracks me up when english Bob is referred to as the "duck of death".
And the writer says...no, it's DUKE of death.

Oh well, it is funny in the movie.