3NT

Hello. This is my very first post here. I hope that I posted this in the right place. I wanted to post this topic to get feedback from you concerning the strength or weakness of an analogy. Please let me know what you think...

Free Will

In refuting the argument of evil, people often times will pull out the free will card going at length to describe how this explains the existence of evil in conjuction with a good and loving god. I have an analogy (Olympic style...wheee!) that I would like feedback on that shows the strength of the free will argument. Thanks.

You are a judge for an Olympic figure skating event. Your job is to identify the best skater based on performance and technical skill. If you do this, then you win. Otherwise you will be fired and the rest of your life will be ruined. Sound easy enough? Perhaps, but...

You are badly near-sighted and do not have any means by which to correct your vision. Squinting offers little to no help. You are so near-sighted that you can barely tell exactly what is out there moving around, let alone know if it is male/female, what country he/she is from, or even know for sure that it is an actual skater. For all you can tell, they could be a breed of large ducks out on the ice.

However you do have the benefit of the crowd. As each skater comes out for their performance, the crowd reacts in different ways. Sometimes they cheer, sometimes they boo, and sometimes they do very little.

Fortunately your great-grandfather is there too. Although he is quite old, he has perfect vision and a clear mind. At the end of the performances, he tells you who he thinks won and why.

So who do you choose and why? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: 3NT ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

Huh? IMO, anyone with an ounce of integrity would acknowledge an inability to perform and resign the position. Those who fail to take such action are deluding themselves and others - the only question being whether or not the deceit is intentional. What any of this has to do with "free will" is beyond me.

BTW, this may be more appropriate in the Existence of God(s) forum, particularly since there are no forums specific to ducks.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

I am also at a loss. A blind judge who relies on his grandfather to tell him who won the event? Are we supposed to be the judges or the skaters?

Where does free will come in to this and how is it analogous? Through free will, we are incapable of making a decision, so we have to ask our grandfather instead of using our free will?

Then what's the pretense of free will for? To give the appearance that we are independent? It's all just a sham and we're really just blind?

No offense to a newbie, but this one needs a little more clarification.

3NT

Ok, allow me to clarify this a bit more...

You are the judge. The skaters represent different gods (or world views), ie Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism (I'm honestly not sure how Atheism fits into my analogy, so I'm putting it here for now), Humanism, etc. Our free will was given to us in that we are to choose which skater is the best, ie which religion is the true one. Of course we are free to withdraw from the judging thus making ourselves an Agnostic. The crowd represents popular opinion. Your great-grandfather represents your parents and/or your upbringing. In retrospect, I should state more clearly that your great-grandfather only claims to have perfect eye-sight and a clear mind, so that is up for debate as well (I guess this is a big point to omit, huh?).

All of this is to represent the Christian view of free will and the fact that this view is absurd. God supposedly gave us free will to freely choose to love him and that determines our destiny. The problems that I have attempted to illustrate is that we can't seem him (them) clearly, often times we rely on popular opinion and/or what our parents tell us to believe. Additionally, judging ice skaters is very difficult because the performances are often quite similar in quality. The absurdity of this (xian free will) is actually apparent in the responses so far even though my analogy may very well just suck. How can we choose to love something that we can't see clearly?

So what do you think?

1. Dude, you need to think this through and come back later.
2. You're on the right track, but here's what you should change...

Thanks.

Koyaanisqatsi

I think you should go through many of the archived discussions about free will here and leave analogies aside.

Analogies, by the way, only illustrate a point, not prove it and yours, I'm sorry to say, does not illustrate your point very well.

Sorry.

3NT

Koy, thanks for your opinion. It was never my intention to prove anything, just to see if my illustration would mean anything to others.

BTW, I don't have access to net over the weekend. Be back on Monday.

three4jump

Why don't we have a forum spefically for ducks? It could be moderated by marduck and duck of death.

Muad'Dib

Since this doesn't involve the Bible or archaeology, I'm sending it to Miscellaneous Religion Discussions.

Queen of Swords

And Howard.

sighhswolf

Actually........free will doesnt exist in Christianity.....it never did and never will.
call me ....we will talk about it.
Wolf