King_of_Plowshares

Hello to all,
Here is an excerpt from a book I am reading that I thought might be of some interest.
Keep in mind,this is a Christian book by a now deceased Romanian Pastor who founded a major organization for the persecution of Christians and/or Martyrs.
He himself was imprisoned in a Communist prison for 14 years,and was severely tortured on several occassions,so his views are very credible.

Anyway,these are a few thoughts he had on witnessing to Atheists/Communists...

"On one occassion a Communist was giving a lecture on Atheism. All factory workers were required to attend;among these workers were many Christians. They sat quietly hearing all the arguments against God and about the stupidity of believing in Christ. The lecturer attempted to prove there is no spiritual world,no God,no Christ,no hereafter;man is only matter with no soul. He said over and over that only matter exists.
A Christian stood up and asked to speak. Permission was given. The Christian picked up his foldong chair and threw it down. He paused,looking at it. He then walked up and slapped the Communist lecturer in the face. The lecturer became very angry. His face flushed red with indignation. He shouted obscenities and called for fellow Communists to arrest the Christian. He demanded,'How dare you slap me? What is the reason?'
"The Christian replied,'You have just proved yourself a liar. You said everything is matter...nothing else. I picked up a chair and threw it down.It is truly matter.When I slapped you,you did not react like the chair. You reacted differently. Matter does not get mad or angry,but YOU did. Therefore comrade professor,you are wrong. Man is more than matter. We are spiritual beings!'"
"In countless ways such as this,ordinary Christians of the Underground Church disproved elaborate Atheistic arguments.
"In prison,the political officer asked me harshly,
'How long will you continue to keep your stupid religion?' I sais to him,'I have seen innumerable Atheists regretting on their deathbeds that they have been godless;they called on Christ. Can you imagine that a Christian could regret,when death is near,that he has been a Christian and call on Marx or Lenin to rescue him from his faith?'
The officer laughed,'A clever answer.' I continued,'When an engineer has built a bridge,the fact that a cat can pass over the bridge is no proof that the bridge is good. A train must pass over it to prove it's strength. The fact that you can be an Atheist when everything goes well does not prove the truth of atheism. It does not hold up in moments of great crisis.' I used Lenin's books to prove to him that,even after becoming Prime Minister of the Soviet Union,Lenin himself prayed when things went wrong."
[From "Tortured for Christ" by Richard Wurmbrand--
--pgs.93-94]


Anyway,I know many here have already heard these points brought up before,but perhaps not from one who personally brought many Communists to Christ,even while being persecuted and despised by those he witnessed to.
Maybe there are varying degrees of Atheism,and some are not as aware of there own inner longing for God as others.
I have also noticed on this board some of the very emotional responses towards what some see as a mean,cold-hearted God.
I also used to have similar feelings before I was "saved". But the difference was that I actually believed in God at the time,and couldn't understand His nature,and why He operated as He did?
But unlike myself,I don't understand how others can also feel anger at this same God who they apparently don't believe exists??
Of course,they will never admit that maybe they are actually reaching out to something or Someone that they don't understand.

And then there is this other group of unbelievers that are more aloof and independent,with no emotional desire to connect with any Higher Power outside of realm of comprehension.
Kind of like the one "outcast" sibling in the family,who never gets too attached to anyone or thing,to avoid being hurt or disappointed.
But I don't want to pre-judge anyone,and I know I haven't included all different types of Atheists,and many diverse backgrounds and upbringings that contributed to the paths they have chosen.

These are just some more topics to debate and critique. And hopefully not anything that has provoked anyone or pushed any buttons.
Not my intentions...I used to be a lot like many of you,and still am at times to a certain degree.
But I am now held captive by a much Higher Power than myself,which prevents me from rebelling as before.
But I understand any bitterness that some of you will express towards these views.

Peace to all,
KOP

SanDiegoAtheist

You misunderstand.

We AREN'T angry at God. We don't believe such a being exists.

We ARE frequently angry at those who claim to FOLLOW God (in whichever incarnation, although, given that the majority of posters here are from areas which have historically been dominated by Xianity, the most frequent target is Xianity). We have plenty of reason though for this...one very good example would be exactly what was contained in that quotation that you put forth.

Essentially, the old "No atheists in foxholes" bit (paraphrased, but certainly present in that quotation). This type of attitude (that we don't REALLY hold our beliefs, and that in times of trouble we will 'discover' our 'inner belief' in God) is quite infuriating to us - as it demeans and marginalizes our beliefs - which WE believe are quite well founded.

Essentially, how would YOU react if a large amount of people were to constantly accuse YOU of NOT really believing what you believe...that you in fact "knew" that there really isn't a God, and that you would eventually realize that all you were doing was being reactionary? Probably not too kindly towards those who accused you of essentially being intellectually dishonest with yourself.

I was born not believing in a God. I grew up not believing in a God. I have lived for 34 years now without any belief in God. During those years, I have had many things happen, and have feared for my life more than once...yet I still do not believe in God. There is simply no evidence for any God that I can see, and certainly none that I have seen for a particular flavour of God such as Christianity.

But I can't be angry with that that I believe not to exist...I can however be angry with those who DO believe that being to exist, especially if and when they belittle my beliefs in favor of something which they cannot demonstrate to me, and make frequent attempts to coercively affect my behavior and my life according to their particular beliefs.

Cheers,
The San Diego Atheist

Abacus

Uh huh. And how exactly would the fact that SOME people, SOMETIMES pray to a god (though not necessarily your particular god) during times of crisis prove Christianity to be true? Or Islam? Or Hinduism? Or Buddhism? Or Judaism? Or <insert the name of any cult here>?

BibleBelted

KOP,

You will find all types here. Some may be bitter, but I haven't seen any who are bitter or angry with god. Of course there is no sense in being angry with a mythical concept.

They are bitter and angry with humans, often their own parents, who tortured, threatened or belittled them in the name of their concept of god.

Personally, I am not one of those. I have been fortunate enough to not have suffered much at the hands of Christians, if you don't count giving away perfectly good money that could have been better spent elsewhere.

Many, if not most, of us here have no problem with anyone believing whatever they feel they need to to get by if, and this is a big if, they aren't trying to cram their beliefs down the throats of others. Unfortunately, many feel their faith compels them to the Great Commission.

I have Christian friends (and family) and get along with them quite well. I like and respect many of them. Most are Christian because they feel there is no moral anchor without a god behind it, and Christianity was the tradition they grew up with. If they had been born in Pakistan they would probably be nice Muslims.

I do have major problems with religious fundamentalism, be it Christian or otherwise. If I had found Christian leaders to be like Father Flanagan, I would probably still be in the fold.

But people like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Bob Enyart, Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts and others forced me to confront the ugly side of unreasoning faith.

I am vehemently opposed to these fundamentalists because they are narrow-minded, hateful, and they abuse a lot of good people who want nothing more than to live decently and help their neighbors.

Surely there are many liberal theists who don't scream Hellfire and brimstone, but I found it impossible to, logically or theologically, conclude that their positions were anymore provable than those of the fundamentalists.

The fundamentalist claims that if the bible contains any errors, if you cannot believe the whole thing, then it is not written by god and is no better than any other book.

On this point I agree with the fundamentalist; therefore, for this and other reasons, I reject it as a worthwhile moral guide.

I appreciate your reasoned tone, and will gladly discuss the issues of faith with you if you wish.

Your post is a breath of fresh air compared to what we usually get from theists who swoop in here spouting bible verses and condemnation.

For an example, go to Rants, Raves, etc. and read anything by Goriller.

Later.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

KOP:

Interesting, but flawed idea. The fact that people can react to situations and think independently is not proof of a spiritual force guiding us. If this was the case, chairs and tables would be equally able to react and think should God decide to give them a "soul" too. Human beings are made up of different chemicals and cells, and they are all functioning in a way to keep the body alive. Chairs do not have the right chemicals and structures that allow it to react to the environment.

The lecturer's reaction can be explained physically without bringing the "spirit" into the discussion. The lecturer saw the Christian walk up and slap him. The eyes transmitted the pictures of the event chemically to the brain, where the brain processed the information. When the Christians hand hit the lecturers face, the neurons in the lecturers face sent the information chemically to the brain where it was processed too. The two events were linked in the brain, and the brain was able to determine that the Christian slapped him, which was the cause of the pain. If one was to remove the parts of the brain which processed this information, the lecturer would not have been able to connect the two events. Two things immediately come to mind: the "spirit" is a spiritual entity which is associated with the brain and slowly leaves the body as parts of the brain are killed, or the "spirit" is another term for "mind" which is yet another term for the chemical reactions which go on inside the brain, and hence is a physical "entity".

Perhaps somebody else will be able to elaborate on this more, but those are just my thoughts on it.

I agree with San Diego Atheist here. The author of the statement seems to be saying that because he saw some Atheists repent on their deathbeds that ALL Atheists must be insecure in their beliefs. Keep in mind that the author of the statement was a prisoner in communist prison. The so-called "atheists" who repented may have disbelieved because they feared persecution from the government. They may have seen so many Christians imprisoned and tortured that they were afraid to believe, and simply submitted to the religious belief of the leader. On their deathbed, when they realized that there was nothing to fear because they were about to die anyway, they may have openly submitted to the closted beliefs they have held for so many years. Of course this may not be true in all cases, but to apply the mentality of these communists on ALL Atheists is a fallacy.

Simply because he coverted many communists to Christ does not mean what he preaches is true. I have no reason to accept his version of the arguments over anyone elses. Whether the person making these statements is a 15 year old down the street or a middle-aged person in a communist prison makes no difference: the arguments are still flawed. They may even be more flawed because his experience is in a communist prison which in no way relates to a modern, free republic, so his reasoning doesn't even remotely relate to my life.

Those reponses are directed at the mean, cold-hearted Christians who constantly preach about their god and disregard our intellect as a result. The non-preachy theist seems to be well-accepted around here, but the dime-a-dozen preachers aren't. Our responses are directed towards them, not the god. I can't speak for everyone, but I do not get angry towards that which I don't believe exists.

Perhaps you were very angry at God. The big difference is that you believed in a supernatural deity. I don't. If I get angry, it's at myself, other people, or society in general. I find out the real cause of my anger and don't project it on a mythical being which I don't believe in.

We aren't angry at this god. We don't believe he exists, so how could we be angry at him? Being angry at God for the problems in our lives in strikingly similar to being angry at the Car-key-gnomes for hiding your keys.

Would me cursing the car-key-gnomes be an indication that I'm reaching out to the magical gnomes which I don't understand as well? What if I don't curse the car-key-gnomes and blame the cat? I'm not reaching out to anybody then, just as I'm not reaching out to God when I'm never angry at him.

You make it seem like we are incapable of becoming attached to anyone or anything in our lives. It's almost as if we have no real friends, no solid relationships, no sentimental possesions, and no desire to form a relationship with God. With the exception of God, I have a very solid relationship with my girlfriend, strong bonds to my parents, etc, etc. I do not seek to form a relationship with god because I do not believe he exists. So far nothing has been able to convince me that some higher power is out there, so I will withhold belief until such evidence is presented. I have evidence that my family and girlfriend exist, but none that a supernatural deity does. Big difference.

I'm not rebelling against anything. I honestly don't believe in god. It's not an attempt at to rebel against mainstream society and become an outcast. It's not an attempt to defy God and elevate myself to the position of god. It's simply my honest interpretation of the evidence presented and my observations on my limited experience in this life.

-Nick

Sephiroth

I honestly believe there is a god named Sephiroth in this forum. To prove it, this topic shall be divinely moved to it's rightful place. Please send all your rants to the appropriate forum in the future.