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KC · 07-09-2003, 06:59 AM

How can a local flood be of 'Biblical proportions'? To biblical in proportion, doesn't it have to be worldwide by definition?

KC

Mageth · 07-09-2003, 08:27 AM

They did however, or so they think, find evidence of a flood of "biblical" proportions. Several hundred feet below the surface of the Black Sea they found human tool remains and cut stones. This seems to support Ryan and Pitman's theories on the the Med.

I thought they dated samples of the wood they found to, IIRC, 200 or so years old???

The remains of the boat they found in deeper water was cool, though. (Incidentally, finding an intact ancient boat in the oxygen-deprived depths of the Black Sea was the original, and primary, goal of the expedition - with the search for evidence of the Black Sea flood a late add-on and secondary goal).

galt23 · 07-09-2003, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by galt23
They did however, or so they think, find evidence of a flood of "biblical" proportions. Several hundred feet below the surface of the Black Sea they found human tool remains and cut stones. This seems to support Ryan and Pitman's theories on the the Med. Sea breaking a natural land dam and flooding the Black Sea with salt water. Although, testing of the wood showed it to be just a couple of hundred years old.

They did succeed in finding "the perfect ship", which was the goal of the expedition. Perfect, meaning a ship of long ago that sank to the bottom of the sea approx. 1700 years ago, that would be in near perfect condition owing to the anoxic conditions of that depth of water.

So, nothing ground breaking to the fundies or flood people, though that didn't stop them from interpretting it that way.

Not to seem like a butthead, but I did correct any mistaken first impressions I had when I first started watching the program.

The flood could be of "biblical" proportions if the local population was decimated and the land for as far as these people had ever travelled was totally destroyed, hence why biblical was in quotation marks.

The show was relatively interesting if you look at it from the angle of the biblical crowd really getting their hopes up, and then when the evidence didn't support their pov, they still held the artifacts up as continuing their personal opinions.

Roland98 · 07-09-2003, 10:51 AM

Quote:

They did succeed in finding "the perfect ship", which was the goal of the expedition. Perfect, meaning a ship of long ago that sank to the bottom of the sea approx. 1700 years ago, that would be in near perfect condition owing to the anoxic conditions of that depth of water.

So other than finding an old ship, what exactly did that show? Maybe I'm dense, but how could this possibly support a fundie anything?

ps418 · 07-09-2003, 12:01 PM

Pressed for time at the moment, but . . .

Ryan and Pittman's hypothesis was not only scientific and testable, it was reasonable. As it turns out, though, there is evidence suggesting that it is incorrect. Aksu et al (2002) presented evidence for outflow from the Black Sea as early as 10k years ago. So, there was outflow from about 10k to about 7.5k. At 7.5k, two-directional flow is established, allowing eurohaline species to colonize the Black Sea. Therefore, according to Aksu et al, the appearance of te eurohaline species does not mark the catastrophic filling of the Black Sea Basin, only the establishment of bi-directional flow.

Quote:

Controversy surrounds reconnection of the Black Sea and Mediterranean during Holocene sea-level rise. This reconnection and its causes have implications for European and Middle Eastern archaeology, paleoclimate, and marine sedimentation; e.g., genesis of organic-rich muds (sapropels). Bill Ryan, Walter Pitman, and co-workers propose reconnection via a catastrophic flood of Mediterranean water into the Black Sea at ca. 7.5 ka, with speculation that this was the historical basis for the biblical story of Noah's Flood. In contrast, this paper suggests a more complex and progressive reconnection over the past 12 k.y. Today, the Black Sea exports considerably more brackish water than the saline inflow it receives from the Mediterranean. There is a stratified, two-layer flow that has a strong effect on aquatic life and seabed sediments. The �Marmara Sea Gateway� (narrow straits of Dardanelles and Bosphorus, and deep intervening Marmara Sea) provides a set of natural flow valves (and sediment traps) that in principle should contain a record of the reconnection. Using 7500 line-km of seismic profiles, 65 soft-sediment cores, and 43 radiocarbon dates, we recognize a 10�11 k.y. history of low surface-water salinities in the Marmara Sea and northern Aegean Sea. The low-density surface layer promoted uninterrupted water-column stratification and depleted oxygen concentrations at depth and is attributed to persistent Black Sea outflow across the Bosphorus Strait. Seismic data reveal a climbing delta on the middle shelf south of the Bosphorus exit, active only from ca. 10 to 9 ka based on radiocarbon dating of its distal prodelta. The strength of the early outflow is confirmed by the progradation of this delta, and contemporaneous severe water-column stratification leading to deposition of sapropels in basinal areas. Ryan and Pitman's argument for a catastrophic Black Sea flood hinges on the rapid first appearance of euryhaline (Mediterranean) mollusks on Black Sea shelves at ca. 7.5 ka. In our view, this colonization was not a consequence of catastrophic flooding but rather the outcome of a slow establishment of two-way flow in the Bosphorus and a time lag during which the fresher waters of the deep Black Sea were replaced by more saline inflow, eventually allowing marine organisms to colonize the Black Sea shelves.

Aksu et al, 2002. Persistent Holocene Outflow from the Black Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean Contradicts Noah's Flood Hypothesis. GSA Today 12, pp. 4�10.
free full text

Patrick

Undercurrent · 07-09-2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KC
How can a local flood be of 'Biblical proportions'? To biblical in proportion, doesn't it have to be worldwide by definition?

My copy of the bible in only six inches tall by four inches wide and an inch deep. I routinely make floods of those proportions in my kitchen sink.

Grumpy · 07-09-2003, 12:54 PM

Bah. I spent my time watching "The Future is Wild" on Animal Planet, instead. At least, I tried to, until I found it too boring to finish. It's a fascinating concept, inspired (I must assume) by Dougal Dixon's After Man. Except that the show belabored the concept ("It's 5 million years in the future, see. That's a really long time, you understand. It's so far in the future, you won't be alive anymore. Did I mention it's 5 million years in the future?"), apparently padding out the running time since they only had a few seconds of CGI animation.

And with what wondrous, unimaginable creature ("Did I mention these are creatures beyond your imagination?") did they begin the show? A wolverine -- but with pointier teeth! Rawr!

("Because scientists tell us that wolves and mountain lions will be extinct in 5 million years." Huh?)

Mageth · 07-09-2003, 01:36 PM

Those giant birds looked suspiciously like some of the giant birds from South America a few tens of thousands of years ago...

pangloss · 07-10-2003, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418
[B]Pressed for time at the moment, but . . .

Ryan and Pittman's hypothesis was not only scientific and testable, it was reasonable.

Oh, indeed. I did not mean to imply that they are a couple of creationist wackos or anything.

It was certainly reasonable, not only from a scientific perspective, but from an historical and even cultural one.

A member of our geology dept. gave a presentation on it, referring to their papers plus the papers of others preceding and coming after them on the subject. If I recall correctly, it seems that they overlooked some data that put the kaibash on their hypothesis.

Nonetheless, it does appear that a relatively rapid flooding did take place in that region.

Interesting.

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07-09-2003, 06:59 AM	#11
KC Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Narcisco, RRR Posts: 527	How can a local flood be of 'Biblical proportions'? To biblical in proportion, doesn't it have to be worldwide by definition? KC

07-09-2003, 08:27 AM	#12
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	They did however, or so they think, find evidence of a flood of "biblical" proportions. Several hundred feet below the surface of the Black Sea they found human tool remains and cut stones. This seems to support Ryan and Pitman's theories on the the Med. I thought they dated samples of the wood they found to, IIRC, 200 or so years old??? The remains of the boat they found in deeper water was cool, though. (Incidentally, finding an intact ancient boat in the oxygen-deprived depths of the Black Sea was the original, and primary, goal of the expedition - with the search for evidence of the Black Sea flood a late add-on and secondary goal).

07-09-2003, 12:54 PM	#17
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Bah. I spent my time watching "The Future is Wild" on Animal Planet, instead. At least, I tried to, until I found it too boring to finish. It's a fascinating concept, inspired (I must assume) by Dougal Dixon's After Man. Except that the show belabored the concept ("It's 5 million years in the future, see. That's a really long time, you understand. It's so far in the future, you won't be alive anymore. Did I mention it's 5 million years in the future?"), apparently padding out the running time since they only had a few seconds of CGI animation. And with what wondrous, unimaginable creature ("Did I mention these are creatures beyond your imagination?") did they begin the show? A wolverine -- but with pointier teeth! Rawr! ("Because scientists tell us that wolves and mountain lions will be extinct in 5 million years." Huh?)

07-09-2003, 01:36 PM	#18
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Those giant birds looked suspiciously like some of the giant birds from South America a few tens of thousands of years ago...

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