Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 03-09-2003, 04:33 PM

Many Catholics see Mary as a kinder, gentler, and more approachable intercessor than Jesus. I suspect this is because their image of Jesus is simply wrong, they think Jesus listens to her better, etc.

Rad

Demigawd · 03-09-2003, 04:41 PM

Cool! Theists of the same religion going at each others' throats over dogma. Time to break out the cooler and lawn chair, and get a good spot up close.

03-09-2003, 05:11 PM

Go ahead, Mary always draws a big crowd.

Jobar · 03-09-2003, 07:37 PM

"My imaginary, unevidenced, ideosyncratic and individually-interpreted version of an invisible daddy can beat up your imaginary, unevidenced, ideosyncratic and individually-interpreted version of an invisible daddy! Nyah nyah nyah!"

Jobar brings lawn chair and big bag of popcorn

Now, let's see. It's Radorth, and Magus55, versus Amos, and Sabine Grant, and- where does the_cave fit in?... Unless, of course, they are stabbing their teammates in the back, or bashing them over the head, or spanking them...

Why am I reminded of Alice in Wonderland?

You know, this would be utterly hilarious, if the whole bloody world wasn't prone to carry on the same sort of Three Stooges nose-twisting, eye-poking and head-bopping. Armed with nuclear missles and war gases...

Radorth · 03-09-2003, 09:24 PM

Yes, pull up a chair. Free thinking is rather unusual around here. No chance of Jesus beating up Mary though. Sorry.

Rad

Godless Dave · 03-10-2003, 06:35 AM

Many Catholic beliefs and practices, and some Protestant beliefs and practices, are clearly unScriptural - they were made up by men, not by God.

As opposed to Scripture itself, which was made up by men, not by God.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

03-10-2003, 08:01 AM

Hello Magus.

Bragging? Yes, remember when Jesus told Peter to tell noone that he was the Christ until it's all over? In case you wonder, it is not over until you have completed the race.

In my opinion Mary does not come into the picture until we are born of God. Until then we pray. After that, we, as prayerfull sojourners along the Tree of Knowledge (wherein we are banned from Eden) must get to know the depth, width and breadth of the Lord our God. We do this thru Mary who is our seat of wisdom in the Tree of Life, and we do this when we return to Eden. We/I hold that Mary is the cherub stationned there and awaits our return there. The fiery revolving sword is Christ and so if Christ can hear our prayers while we are in exile, so can Mary.

Notice that Jesus is never part of the picture because Jesus was counted among the wicked to be crucified in the Gospels and therefore not God. Least of all should he be the object of our prayer but is rightfully chosen as an example for us to follow (hence his words "follow me" and "drink of the cup I drank)."

Once united ("the father and I are one") the dove can descend because it would be a contradiction if she did not descend. Worse yet, it would be wrong to pray after the dove descended, don't you think?. To be blunt, why must we pray the spirit down from heaven we are already "filled with the holy spirit?"

From the above follows that if you and yours do not recognize Mary as the seat of wisdom . . . wisdom is not yours. Without wisdom and understanding you won't be able to work out your own salvation and therefore will die nonetheless (you will recongize the scriptures behind this, I am sure).

In this same context your Exodus passages are for unsaved believers and not for those who have been set free from the Law (Gal.5:1). For them, they serve for the conviction of sin and for you they now serve as a stumbling block.

Biff the unclean · 03-10-2003, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Many Catholic beliefs and practices, and some Protestant beliefs and practices, are clearly unScriptural - they were made up by men, not by God.

As opposed to Scripture itself, which was made up by men, not by God.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

A professor friend of mine who is also a Jesuit Priest calls this the "Protestant Cult of the Bible." As he puts it, they have taken the instruction book, of all things, and turned it into the subject of idolatry. Then they have the nerve complain about Mary who was at least more than an old book.

03-10-2003, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
A professor friend of mine who is also a Jesuit Priest calls this the "Protestant Cult of the Bible." As he puts it, they have taken the instruction book, of all things, and turned it into the subject of idolatry. Then they have the nerve complain about Mary who was at least more than an old book.

Correction: that should be protestant with a small p and "a whole" lot more than an old book." I wanne say "decpetive" old book but it is only deceptive for curious eyes so I won't blame the book that Catholics wrote to stirr the mind of impatient people.

Bree · 03-10-2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Does praying to Mary make you rich or famous?

Does praying to Jesus make you rich or famous?

Quote:

All this junk about Mary isn't Biblical, where then is it coming from? The Pope? because he certaintly isn't sinless...

And neither are you. Doesn't the Bible say something about taking the log out of your own eye before pointing out the splinter in the eye of your brother? Or was that part interpreted incorrectly?

Quote:

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I don't see Mary mentioned anywhere in that verse do you?

Yes, but that's just one verse. What about the rest of them?

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03-09-2003, 04:33 PM	#111
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	Many Catholics see Mary as a kinder, gentler, and more approachable intercessor than Jesus. I suspect this is because their image of Jesus is simply wrong, they think Jesus listens to her better, etc. Rad

03-09-2003, 04:41 PM	#112
Demigawd Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place Posts: 2,254	Cool! Theists of the same religion going at each others' throats over dogma. Time to break out the cooler and lawn chair, and get a good spot up close.

03-09-2003, 05:11 PM	#113
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Go ahead, Mary always draws a big crowd.

03-09-2003, 07:37 PM	#114
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	"My imaginary, unevidenced, ideosyncratic and individually-interpreted version of an invisible daddy can beat up your imaginary, unevidenced, ideosyncratic and individually-interpreted version of an invisible daddy! Nyah nyah nyah!" Jobar brings lawn chair and big bag of popcorn Now, let's see. It's Radorth, and Magus55, versus Amos, and Sabine Grant, and- where does the_cave fit in?... Unless, of course, they are stabbing their teammates in the back, or bashing them over the head, or spanking them... Why am I reminded of Alice in Wonderland? You know, this would be utterly hilarious, if the whole bloody world wasn't prone to carry on the same sort of Three Stooges nose-twisting, eye-poking and head-bopping. Armed with nuclear missles and war gases...

03-09-2003, 09:24 PM	#115
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	Yes, pull up a chair. Free thinking is rather unusual around here. No chance of Jesus beating up Mary though. Sorry. Rad

03-10-2003, 06:35 AM	#116
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Many Catholic beliefs and practices, and some Protestant beliefs and practices, are clearly unScriptural - they were made up by men, not by God. As opposed to Scripture itself, which was made up by men, not by God. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

03-10-2003, 08:01 AM	#117
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Hello Magus. Bragging? Yes, remember when Jesus told Peter to tell noone that he was the Christ until it's all over? In case you wonder, it is not over until you have completed the race. In my opinion Mary does not come into the picture until we are born of God. Until then we pray. After that, we, as prayerfull sojourners along the Tree of Knowledge (wherein we are banned from Eden) must get to know the depth, width and breadth of the Lord our God. We do this thru Mary who is our seat of wisdom in the Tree of Life, and we do this when we return to Eden. We/I hold that Mary is the cherub stationned there and awaits our return there. The fiery revolving sword is Christ and so if Christ can hear our prayers while we are in exile, so can Mary. Notice that Jesus is never part of the picture because Jesus was counted among the wicked to be crucified in the Gospels and therefore not God. Least of all should he be the object of our prayer but is rightfully chosen as an example for us to follow (hence his words "follow me" and "drink of the cup I drank)." Once united ("the father and I are one") the dove can descend because it would be a contradiction if she did not descend. Worse yet, it would be wrong to pray after the dove descended, don't you think?. To be blunt, why must we pray the spirit down from heaven we are already "filled with the holy spirit?" From the above follows that if you and yours do not recognize Mary as the seat of wisdom . . . wisdom is not yours. Without wisdom and understanding you won't be able to work out your own salvation and therefore will die nonetheless (you will recongize the scriptures behind this, I am sure). In this same context your Exodus passages are for unsaved believers and not for those who have been set free from the Law (Gal.5:1). For them, they serve for the conviction of sin and for you they now serve as a stumbling block.

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