seebs

I understand your fears, but at the same time, it's only fair to point out that people *have* resolved these issues in the past.

admice

Dear Darren,

I hope you are not overwhelmed by yet one more person advising you, but I couldn't stay uninvolved.

Some background on me first: I have been a lay minister (when I was a (Methodist) Christian). I minored in Religious Studies. I am an atheist and have been for 20 years. I am now studying for my M. A in counseling.

There is so much going on here, I think it would be helpful to break it down some.

Counseling:

I hope you will consider counseling for yourself, independently of your wife's involvement. Counselors can help you clarify your issues and find out what is important to you. They can also help you with stress and communication.

Regarding couples counseling, there are very good secular and Christian counselors. A good counselor does not give you advice, but helps clarify and resolve situations on the clients terms. You and your wife could interview several to find one that is acceptable to you both. If you think this would be a contention point with your wife, then going to the pastor she trusts would still be helpful.

The primary problem for you and your wife right now is communication and trust. These are at the core of any relationship, secular or not. The issues in your marriage are not theological (even though your wife says that is the case). As others have pointed out, many couples who have different beliefs have strong marriages. Right now, neither of you can speak to each other in an honest and open manner, or listen to each other with compassion and understanding. That basis has to be re-developed.

It is not the fact there are theological differences between you, it is that you (as a couple) can't communicate with each other what you really feel and think (fear, anger, sorrow).

A counselor can also help with this, but if you are unable to go to counseling, (which would be the best thing) there are several good books on effective communication that may be helpful. If you'ld like I'll recommend some. Others here may be able to as well.

Exploring WHY your wife thinks your conversion is relationship-threatening in critical. What is she afraid of? Until you can talk to each other in non-threatening ways (her the relationship, you her beliefs) your relationship cannot improve.

Another problem is Lifestyle:

Right now, there is too much stress for both of you from overwork. Your wife's hours are interfering with her health (mental and physical) and your families'. Also, any couple needs time together. I strongly suggest your wife cut back her work hours and try to schedule more time which overlaps with yours at home.
One reason she may be over-scheduling is to avoid the situation. If she is unwilling to change her hours, I suggest starting counseling first. That may help diffuse the situation and make her more willing to reduce her work hours. It may also help her feel more capable of dealing with what's going on in your family.

I realize you want to explore your new beliefs and thoughts and this is important to you (and I'm sure it's painful and frustrating to not be able to discuss them with the most important person to you, your wife). But I suggest you do so with those here on the board or with clergy/theologians/atheists locally, for now. Your wife obviously finds it threatening and such discussions cannot help your marriage. In time perhaps you will be able to or not, that is something you both will have to find out. And discover if it is a situation either of you cannot live with. But the way to discover that is thru calm communication after the other issues in your marriage are clarified and resolved.

A minor point to the other readers as well as you: It does not matter what the Bible or Christian doctrine says about your relationship, it is what each of you BELIEVES and accepts about that which matters in regard to your relationship. If you want to discuss that, I suggest you separate it from the relationship issue.

I apologize for being so long and for offering advise which may be unwanted. I hope some of it is helpful. If I can be of any other help, please let me know either here, or in a private message or email.

I wish you well and my heart is with you both.

Candace

HelenM

Just to say that my favorite communication-in-relationships book is "Love Is Never Enough" by Aaron Beck. (It's a totally secular book)

I think it costs under $20 which is much less than one session with a professional counselor. Although - counselors can do things a book can't. But if money is an issue - or there is resistance to going to a professional counselor - I think this book is a great place to start.

I'd be interested to hear what marriage books you think are good, Candace. Hopefully recommending books about marriage is within the scope of this thread. If not you could PM me. Speaking for myself, I found your comments helpful - I hope VP will also

Helen

ksagnostic

I'm also jumping into this one late, having read through this thread just last night. Amazingly, most of the thoughts I thought were missing from this thread were, overnight, identified and written by Candace. To reiterate a couple of things she said:

Get counseling for yourself. Your wife doesn't seem to really be interested in couple's counseling, she's looking to stack the deck and change your mind. She is not looking for marriage counseling, she is looking for help in "ministering" to you. IF this minister is truly supportive, and shares your priority for your joint sessions of working to keep you together, you may be able to work in some couple's counseling from him, or someone he recommends. But, you are going through a very rough time yourself, and you can control what you get even if you can't control what she gets.

The main issue isn't really a matter of theology, it's communication. Reading through this thread, you get an unfolding sense of history, and one sense I get is that the religion is a flashpoint, but you have had some significant conflicts before that. If you and your wife have already had a considerable amount of conflict, she may have latched onto your shared faith as a piece of common ground that kept your marriage together. As she says, the basis of the promises made for your marriage. Or for that matter, she sees her religion as a fundamental part of herself. You reject the religion, you reject her.

Your wife's work schedule. I also wonder if she is trying to avoid you and the conflict. Also, you think in some sense she may be trying to get "financial independence" from you?

All that being said, I wonder what your wife's experiences with family conflict were before you were married. Threats and hard emotional potshots are, I think, generally learned behavior . What was her family like (you indicated that she had conflicts with her mother, I think?)? Her fundamentalism is not, in my experience, typical of United Methodists (there are exceptions, like Donald Wildmon). Wonder if some of this is you say A, so I will say -A.

Just some thoughts, hope it helps.

Edited to remove some inappropriate speculation.

admice

books: yes Aaron Beck's Love is Never Enough is a great book. He takes the cognitive therapy approach, which I also prefer. A very good book for anyone is The Feeling Good Handbook by Dr David M. Burns ( his original book, Feeling Good, was written with Beck), and Boundaries in Marriage by Dr Henry Cloud et. al. (A Chrsitian minister). Check them out (Amazon has them), see if you think they would be helpful.

Another great book for child rearing (secular or not) and resolving one's own childhood difficulties (Darren mentioned his wife had some problems then) is Growing Up AGain by Connie Dawson & Jean Illsley Clarke.

I reiterate, there are many aspects of relationships and human behavior which can be helped through therapy independent of one's beliefs: communication, stress management, time management, conflict resolution, etc.

Best wishes for you all

HelenM

Thanks, Candace. I just want to comment that some people here would probably find Henry Cloud [and John Townsend]'s writing way too 'Christian' for their liking. Their books on boundaries were the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned boundaries just now in another thread. I think they explain the concept well but definitely not in a secular way.

Helen

admice

I offer the Boundaries book for their wives, in case they wouldn't acceopt a secular book. Clear, well-written, based upon scientific, clinical studies (as to effectiveness).

HelenM

Oh, ok. I didn't realize you meant it for their wives.

Helen

Vicar Philip

I wish I could get her to read books like any of the ones mentioned. I might try later on, but right now we're still in the "acceptance" stage (at least I hope).

Last night we had some friends of hers from work over for supper (theist or not, she's one helluva cook!) for lasagna. Before everyone got there, I asked her if she was saying grace, because I wasn't. This pissed her off. "Why not?? You always have before!!" Yes, I said, and I always went to church too. Not anymore. She turned away from me and through gritted teeth said "I'm not fighting with you."

So only two of the guests she'd invited showed up, and my friend from work came. Since I wouldn't say grace, she asked him too. Of course she made a big production out of it: "Since HE won't say grace, will you say it?" to my friend. I couldn't have planned it better. He says: "Good bread, good meat, good god, let's eat!" in a slightly inebriated voice. She slugged him in the arm, and then we ate.

The thing about all this that really angers me is her total unwillingness to even acknowledge my non-belief, and her entire lack of consideration for my feelings. How would she feel if I told her NOONE would say grace? It's the same as her telling me I am EXPECTED to say grace, even though we've discussed this several times before.

All I've got to say is, if these meetings with the pastor don't result in her chilling out on the god shit, I don't see us being together much longer. I've had it.

Darren

HelenM

As if she didn't know whynot...

It sounds like you're both too angry at each other right now to think about flexibility and compromises.

A third person can help by getting you to both agree to one compromise each, say...which is also a sign to each other, even if grudgingly given , that you both do want this to work, if possible. When there's a lot of conflict and tension and anger it can be very hard to keep sight of that and virtually impossible to verbalize it to each other, without some 'third-party mediator'.

Helen