Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David Mathews · 07-08-2002, 07:15 PM

Hello Everyone,

I believe it would serve everyone well to consider what you say. There is no excuse whatsoever for anyone to speak in an angry or hateful way towards anyone, even if you strongly disagree with that person.

Attempts to insult or offend theists actually present atheism in a negative manner. If you are calm, patient and respectful you will present your viewpoint more eloquently and effectively than you ever can by behaving in a caustic and abrasive manner.

The purpose for discussions is for both sides to instruct each other. Greater understanding is beneficial as it leads members of both parties to respect and tolerate each other without regard to any differences. Ideally, we will all live in a world where theists and atheists can peacefully coexist and benefit from each other's company.

We will never attain such a world if Christians introduce themselves to atheists by insults, nor is it possible if atheists introduce themselves to Christians by insults. All of these insults only serve to drive both groups away from each other, and isolation allows stereotypes and prejudice to form in the separated groups.

I believe in total integration. I believe that Christians should associate with atheists and that atheists should associate with Christians. I believe that both sides can coexist peacefully without strife.

I also believe that all religions can and should coexist peacefully without strife. I believe that this goal is only possible by persistent peaceful contact, interaction and discussion between all groups of people.

The internet is a very powerful tool for such a goal. On the internet you can read the primary scriptures of all of the world's religions, contact and interact with people outside your own group (as I am now doing here with atheists) and thereby gain a better understanding of people which formerly were beyond reach.

The values of love, mercy, toleration and peace are universally held in esteem by all of the world's religions and non-religions. Those atheists who recognize the value of these virtues ought to lead by example. There is no excuse whatsoever for atheists on internet infidels to insult Christian visitors because these visitors are in reality guests and they ought to be treated in that manner.

Discussions are useful and entertaining. Arguments filled with accusations, insults, offenses and slander are useless and counterproductive.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Gould · 07-08-2002, 07:35 PM

I agree. While sometimes I stumble in my desire to be friendly with everyone, I think we should all try our best to at the very least start well.

I also think that people should do their best to understand that an insult from one person should be taken as being from them only. This can help reduce the instances of stereotyping.

Also, remember that messages are often written in haste. It is easy to see nastiness where carelessness is the true cause.

I have learned to put the best possible interpretation I can on people's intentions. I have also learned that a humourous dig or a paradoy is a better way of dealing with your own anger than a straight out nasty attack.

I also understand that many people have had and continue to have bad experiences with some of those on the other side of the philosophical divide. This tends to make me a little more forgiving of insults and attacks.

All sides also tend to come with a package of beliefs about why the other side thinks the way they do. This should be borne in mind - I am specifically talking here to atheists who respond aggressively to someone who says things like: 'People reject God out of pride' and things like that.

If you want to live in harmony with people it is a good idea to have a look at what is actually behind statements like that one before jumping in boots and all to grind them to paste.

Sending another Christian fundamentalist packing might be fun but it does not necessarily assist in the promotion of tolerance for atheism...

B. H. Manners · 07-08-2002, 09:09 PM

I agree with you wholeheartedly David Mathews and will adjust my behavior in the future for one.

Bible Humper · 07-08-2002, 09:40 PM

Good advice, it is especially important when debating religious beliefs because it is a sensitive issue for most people.

I suspect that I am most likely one of the people that inspired you to write this thread, David, based on the fact that I have been on the attack since you arrived here, and for that I am sorry.

It would be better to treat our debates as a collaboration, rather than a competition.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Splashing Colours Of Whimsy ]</p>

DarkBronzePlant · 07-09-2002, 06:58 AM

Indeed. The challenge, which everyone here should try to meet, is that this an impersonal forum, where people are not communicating face-to-face. As such, it is much easier to start hurling insults at others. As well, when communicating via online boards, chats, or email for that matter, you lose all non-verbal clues... the only part of your message that other people receive is the words themselves; it then becomes very easy to "accidentally" come off as rude or cruel, in a way that might not happen with face-to-face or telephone conversations. Smilies and emoticons help, but only to a small extent.

This isn't really an "Existence of God" topic, but I'll leave it here for a little bit before moving it.

The Messiah · 07-09-2002, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Quote David Mathews

Ideally, we will all live in a world where theists and atheists can peacefully coexist and benefit from each other's company.

How can two groups of people holding equally ignorant standpoints hope to coexist peacefully? Valium?

agapeo · 07-09-2002, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Messiah:
<strong>

How can two groups of people holding equally ignorant standpoints hope to coexist peacefully? Valium?</strong>

Valium? Well, I suppose that might be one way. But then again, if you only have one tab you might have a problem unless you can agree to share.

OTOH, perhaps through the knowledge that is shared on this site the ignorance (as you say) of both sides may be educated out of them.

To David: Well said! Hopefully most will remember this in future exchanges not only with you, but others as well. But hey, only I can be perfect, huh?

sidewinder · 07-09-2002, 08:11 AM

David: Now, if you could just convince those millions of intolerant, unjust, merciless, and non-peaceful theists of your view, the world would be a much better place. The primary problem as I see it is that theistic groups think they have all the answers and they try to enforce their views on others not belonging to their group. So, they go about the world, disrupting cultures, causing strife between people, etc. While I realize that non-theists can be intolerant, unjust, merciless, and non-peaceful, I don't see many of them trying to enforce their views on others. Most non-theists have a "live and let live" attitude toward others who believe differently than they do. I don't see non-theists going to different cultures around the world trying to convert people to some form of non-theism. The non-theists on this board may be passionate about their views but I think most(if not all)don't care if someone "converts" to non-theism.

07-08-2002, 07:15 PM	#1
David Mathews Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 622	Love, Mercy, Tolerance and Peace Hello Everyone, I believe it would serve everyone well to consider what you say. There is no excuse whatsoever for anyone to speak in an angry or hateful way towards anyone, even if you strongly disagree with that person. Attempts to insult or offend theists actually present atheism in a negative manner. If you are calm, patient and respectful you will present your viewpoint more eloquently and effectively than you ever can by behaving in a caustic and abrasive manner. The purpose for discussions is for both sides to instruct each other. Greater understanding is beneficial as it leads members of both parties to respect and tolerate each other without regard to any differences. Ideally, we will all live in a world where theists and atheists can peacefully coexist and benefit from each other's company. We will never attain such a world if Christians introduce themselves to atheists by insults, nor is it possible if atheists introduce themselves to Christians by insults. All of these insults only serve to drive both groups away from each other, and isolation allows stereotypes and prejudice to form in the separated groups. I believe in total integration. I believe that Christians should associate with atheists and that atheists should associate with Christians. I believe that both sides can coexist peacefully without strife. I also believe that all religions can and should coexist peacefully without strife. I believe that this goal is only possible by persistent peaceful contact, interaction and discussion between all groups of people. The internet is a very powerful tool for such a goal. On the internet you can read the primary scriptures of all of the world's religions, contact and interact with people outside your own group (as I am now doing here with atheists) and thereby gain a better understanding of people which formerly were beyond reach. The values of love, mercy, toleration and peace are universally held in esteem by all of the world's religions and non-religions. Those atheists who recognize the value of these virtues ought to lead by example. There is no excuse whatsoever for atheists on internet infidels to insult Christian visitors because these visitors are in reality guests and they ought to be treated in that manner. Discussions are useful and entertaining. Arguments filled with accusations, insults, offenses and slander are useless and counterproductive. Sincerely, David Mathews

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07-08-2002, 07:35 PM	#2
David Gould Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 759	I agree. While sometimes I stumble in my desire to be friendly with everyone, I think we should all try our best to at the very least start well. I also think that people should do their best to understand that an insult from one person should be taken as being from them only. This can help reduce the instances of stereotyping. Also, remember that messages are often written in haste. It is easy to see nastiness where carelessness is the true cause. I have learned to put the best possible interpretation I can on people's intentions. I have also learned that a humourous dig or a paradoy is a better way of dealing with your own anger than a straight out nasty attack. I also understand that many people have had and continue to have bad experiences with some of those on the other side of the philosophical divide. This tends to make me a little more forgiving of insults and attacks. All sides also tend to come with a package of beliefs about why the other side thinks the way they do. This should be borne in mind - I am specifically talking here to atheists who respond aggressively to someone who says things like: 'People reject God out of pride' and things like that. If you want to live in harmony with people it is a good idea to have a look at what is actually behind statements like that one before jumping in boots and all to grind them to paste. Sending another Christian fundamentalist packing might be fun but it does not necessarily assist in the promotion of tolerance for atheism...

07-08-2002, 09:09 PM	#3
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	I agree with you wholeheartedly David Mathews and will adjust my behavior in the future for one.

07-08-2002, 09:40 PM	#4
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Good advice, it is especially important when debating religious beliefs because it is a sensitive issue for most people. I suspect that I am most likely one of the people that inspired you to write this thread, David, based on the fact that I have been on the attack since you arrived here, and for that I am sorry. It would be better to treat our debates as a collaboration, rather than a competition. [ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Splashing Colours Of Whimsy ]</p>

07-09-2002, 06:58 AM	#5
DarkBronzePlant Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Posts: 3,568	Indeed. The challenge, which everyone here should try to meet, is that this an impersonal forum, where people are not communicating face-to-face. As such, it is much easier to start hurling insults at others. As well, when communicating via online boards, chats, or email for that matter, you lose all non-verbal clues... the only part of your message that other people receive is the words themselves; it then becomes very easy to "accidentally" come off as rude or cruel, in a way that might not happen with face-to-face or telephone conversations. Smilies and emoticons help, but only to a small extent. This isn't really an "Existence of God" topic, but I'll leave it here for a little bit before moving it.

07-09-2002, 08:11 AM	#8
sidewinder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omnipresent Posts: 234	David: Now, if you could just convince those millions of intolerant, unjust, merciless, and non-peaceful theists of your view, the world would be a much better place. The primary problem as I see it is that theistic groups think they have all the answers and they try to enforce their views on others not belonging to their group. So, they go about the world, disrupting cultures, causing strife between people, etc. While I realize that non-theists can be intolerant, unjust, merciless, and non-peaceful, I don't see many of them trying to enforce their views on others. Most non-theists have a "live and let live" attitude toward others who believe differently than they do. I don't see non-theists going to different cultures around the world trying to convert people to some form of non-theism. The non-theists on this board may be passionate about their views but I think most(if not all)don't care if someone "converts" to non-theism.

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