Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Muffinstuffer · 05-17-2003, 02:44 PM

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Originally posted by Cipher Girl
Well from your tone you are definitely not that guy.

Thank you

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Seriously, you have nothing to apologize for. Obvisiously you cannot control how other christians behave. But instead of spending the time apologizing for the bad behavior of other christians, reasonable christians should not condone it and speak out against it. I speak out when I can without causing major problems for myself or if I'm only going to see the person a very few times. Perhaps I should be more forward.

I do in fact speak out against it. I don't exactly picket on street corners, but when I can speak out against it, I do.

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You probably have witnessed to someone who did not appreciate it, but they said nothing. Last month I was in our Atlanta office and had a meeting with a co-worker from that office. He brought his wife. The conversation drifted towards the new Georgia flag and how "those atheists were causing trouble". That "those people" should be stopped. I just looked at her like she was an idiot and made some remark about a flag that should include everyone. She continued on with remarks about her church and how she found god, but I just ignored her politely and shifted the conversation. Interesting how some christians assume everyone around them is a christian, so they feel free to insult other groups. Is this usual Georgia behavior?

I don't know...but then again, you have missed or forgotten the fact that I VERY rarely do any witnessing at work (and then, I only do it after work or at lunch), and when I DO, it is almost always done when people come to ME first and ask questions and stuff.

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As one of "those people"

, in some situations it's just better to ignore the offending person. Of couse not when it comes to threats however. Those I always take seriously. Anyway my opinion of her nosedived during the conversation, all without her even knowing it.

I can understand why. *L*

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That's a rather frightning point of view, equating killing someone with insulting them. Perhaps I should have been very, very, afraid when I was threatned. Since one sin is just like another sin. But since I don't believe in the concept of sin, I'm glad I can judge actions on the basis of how much hurt is done to others.

Well, I didn't mean that humans think that way. Most of us do not, even a lot of Christians. What I mean is that overall, we all screw up...some small, some big, but they're all screwups. Same with sin. Some are small, some are big, but they're all sin. I had mentioned something before about our actions and deeds being representative of where our hearts are at, and that's where all actions - killing, or smacking, or insulting, OR doing good and helping - come from, essentially...and what I'm trying to say is that our 'heart' - our intentions, our thoughts, etc., to the Christian line of thinking, can 'condemn' us just as easily as actions do. I can actually COMMIT adultery, or I can do it in my mind, but to God, if I do it in my mind, it's as good as done (and this is supported by the Bible, by the way...I'm getting this from the Bible, just so you know I'm not making up my own Scripture here

.

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quick question, Muffinstuffer, why do I have to be forgiven for anything? Just by being alive? I don't need to grovel before a jealous spiteful being just for existing.

If you have met ANY Christian before and discussed this subject with them, then you have an idea of why Christians think 'you' (by 'you' I mean the general you) need to be forgiven for just being alive.

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Very interesting discussion, Muffinstuffer.

Yes it is.

Muffinstuffer · 05-17-2003, 03:04 PM

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Originally posted by QueenofSwords
True. But if one does not have full knowledge of the universe - or of the minds of other people - one is not justified in deciding that they would be happier belonging to one's religion.

Which is why I said that this has a lot to do with the person's point of view.

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Well, the question begs asking, what constitutes a 'shotgun approach'? If you mean just witnessing to every single person I can possibly find, I don't do that.

You might do so, but not all christians do. I'm thinking of the door-to-door people here.

Oh. Ok then

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True, but the difference between a stalker and THIS particular Christian (I can't speak for them all of course) is that I try once, and if someone gets offended, I apologize, and then quit. Most stalkers do not.

Many proselytizing christians do not, either.

True...but then, as I said, I don't just 'witness' actively. I also try to live my life as an example (in other words I do it on the sly - heh heh), and it actually does work for me. I was actually complimented the other day by a friend of mine at work because evidently the way I've conducted myself has given him hope, and he has asked me if he could ask me questions about Christianity and the like. This from the guy who used to go nuts when anyone mentioned it. I've never witnessed 'actively' to this guy, so I must be doing something 'right.' *L*

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And thanks for the compliment.

You're welcome. Now give me one.

Dang....was worried it would come to this. Heh heh. Seriously, I've been treated with a great amount of respect since I arrived here, and I somewhat foresaw you tearing me apart, especially with your choice of screenname. But you've been more than civil with me...you've been polite and kind. Even if our viewpoints differ, you respect mine, or at least my choice to hold that viewpoint, and it means a great deal to me. Thank you.

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I felt that way when my mom's friend started talking about her son and crying. "How can I tell this person that the constant references to god are boring the hell out of me?" I thought. This kind of Stealth-fighter witnessing - to continue the military metaphors - does not win friends or influence people.

Well, of course I don't know if this person was actually witnessing, or if they really felt that way. If they were doing that, and they know you don't want them to, then I can understand your chagrin. I'm a very honest and straightforward person, and occasionally when things happen that seem to impact a Christian worldview, I comment on them. I used to comment on them with my buddies around - usually when they'd ask - but now if I realize that doing so requires a 'Christian' answer, I either decline to, OR I preface it by saying that it has to do with my beliefs, so if I do, they have no excuse.

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I do hope you understand that when I talk to someone about my faith, a) if I am the initiator, I usually do so ONLY after getting to know that person AND finding out if they are receptive to it.

MS, I think you got it right : we are discussing two different types of witnessing here.

1. your type, which seems respectful of the other person's right not to hear it and right to reject it once it is heard.

2. the type I have most frequently encountered, which is the opposite.

I don't have much of a gripe with type 1. I don't want to hear it, but it doesn't cause half as much harm and annoyance as the second type. Maybe that's not saying much, though.

True *LOL* And of course you have to know that as a Christian, I can 'respect' the efforts of those who do actively witness in public and the like. I can commiserate with the feelings of the victims, of course (haha) but by the same token, being a proponent of Christianity, I understand why it is done - indeed, it is a command set to Christians from Jesus - and like it or not (I know your choice is 'not' - heh heh) it does work.

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This is true. Sometimes, people are so scarred by fundamentalist christianity that they don't want to hear anything about it at all. Not that this justifies being nasty to a theist who is polite enough to say, "I'm sorry that this offends you. I didn't realize it would do so, and I won't bring up the subject again."

Yeah, and seriously, this was my point....if I'm doing it ONCE to a person, in the aforementioned manner that I usually do it, and they STILL tear me a new @#$@##, then I usually consider the response way out of line considering the manner in which I conduct myself, and considering I leave them alone after that.

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This is distinct, though, from taking apart the theist's arguments. IMO, personal niceness and the quality of one's arguments are completely distinct, and it's possible to demolish the argument - even sarcastically - without being rude towards the person who promoted it.

I know this.

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If all Christians sat around trying to witness BUT refrained from doing so because they were worried about offending people,

then we'd all be in heaven.

Haha! This is obviously one of those points where we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Obviously I have to point out the fact that by virtue of what I believe, I'd be one of those 'fundies.'

Not all fundies are created equal. If you are indeed a biblical literalist, I hope you stick around, because I like some balance here between the 'good' fundies and the 'bad' fundies.

I am a biblical literalist. (*runs and hides*) And notwithstanding everyone here tearing me apart just by virtue of the fact that I AM a Christian, I'll stick around.

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As far as tolerating goes, as I'm SURE you've heard before, and as the saying goes, "Christian's aren't perfect....just forgiven."

I'm not really fond of this phrase because firstly, I've seen some theists using it as an excuse for why they've just insulted someone (not someone's arguments, but another person). Secondly, didn't Jesus say, "Be ye therefore perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect?"

Yes, He did. I'll have to be honest and say that I will have to look up the context in which it is used to ensure that I know EXACTLY what he means by 'being perfect' because He ALSO says, in essence, that we CAN NOT be perfect because we are human and possess sinful natures. It's really easy to take Scripture out of context - we Christians do it all the time.

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Anyway, I doubt that you're going to use the phrase as a safety net for your words - which so far have been decent and respectful.

Thank you. Dangit! Another compliment! What the heck am I gonna do now....lemme think of a compliment.....ah, here goes. You are a veritable plethora of feminine pulchritude.

Hey, it IS a compliment. Whether or not it is applicable to you, I dunno, but it's a compliment.

Muffinstuffer · 05-17-2003, 03:10 PM

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Originally posted by DMB
I am interested in your position on separation of church and state. Can I take it that you feel that part of your religious belief mandates a requirement for "In God We Trust" on your country's money?

Now I am only a naive atheist, but I remember the context of Jesus's famous "Render unto Caesar..." saying. Someone asked him whether it was OK to pay taxes to the Romans and he held up a coin and asked whose head was on it. The answer was "Caesar's". I also seem to remember a saying about how no man can serve two masters: God and Mammon. (This one has, of course, created huge problems for all those camels trying to squeeze through the eye of the needle and is frequently simply ignored.)

In my book, money is Mammon. Isn't it a bit confusing to stamp it with religious sentiments?

What is the purpose of this statement on the money? Is it to remind xians that they trust in god? Do they forget so often? Is it there simply to intimidate all non-xians who use the Government-provided notes: to remind them that they are second-class citizens? (If so, what a xian sentiment! Would Jesus have approved?)

Well, as I've mentioned before, both here and elsewhere, at the very LEAST, the nation's founding fathe.....oops, forgive me...."FRAMERS"

founded this nation with the intention of having the rights of all religions - including Christianity - be protected, and I ALSO believe that it was their intention that Christianity would be included to some extent in the everyday execution of the matters of business of the USA. I know there's a lot of contesting as to this fact, but even discounting 'inflation' of original statements made by historical figures and the like, there's too much evidence to suggest that they intended it to some extent. So from that point of view, I can't really say I disagree with it, of course.

Do I think we REQUIRE that "In God We Trust" be on our money? Of course not. It can say "Weebulz Wobble But They Don't Fall Down" for all I care. I don't need that on a dollar to remind me what I believe. Would I like to SEE it there? Of course I would. I'm Christian. But my world will not crumble and fall if it is removed. I may not feel good about it being removed, but I'll survive just fine.

Rational BAC · 05-17-2003, 03:18 PM

Separation of church and state is fundamental to this nation. It may be overdone sometimes, but what does that hurt really?.

When you consider the alternative- and its possible consequences----I LOVE the separation of church and state.

Requiring "In God We Trust" on currency is just foolishness. No point to it. Requiring organized prayers in schools is also foolishness. No point to it.

No one can stop you from praying to your Lord at any time or in any place.

Fundies need to get a life and not start fights over unimportant things.

Muffinstuffer · 05-17-2003, 03:23 PM

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Originally posted by Rational BAC
Requiring "In God We Trust" on currency is just foolishness. No point to it. Requiring organized prayers in schools is also foolishness. No point to it.

I agree. Obviously as a Christian, I don't consider prayer foolish, but I consider organized prayer, especially in a secular school where there is a large amount of other faiths represented, some silly. I don't consider the right of people to organize themselves and pray silly, though. As far as the currency requirement, I already agreed for th most part.

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No one can stop you from praying to your Lord at any time or in any place.

On this I disagree. I HAVE been stopped before, when I clearly had a right to, and was infringing upon no one else's rights.

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Fundies need to get a life and not start fights over unimportant things.

Hey now. This fundie didn't do nuthin' to you.

Rhea · 05-17-2003, 05:05 PM

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Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
On this I disagree. I HAVE been stopped before, when I clearly had a right to, and was infringing upon no one else's rights.

How curious. How could anyone possibly stop you from praying - short of injecting you with a tranquilizer?

Muffinstuffer · 05-17-2003, 07:32 PM

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Originally posted by Rhea
How curious. How could anyone possibly stop you from praying - short of injecting you with a tranquilizer?

Well, granted, now that you mention it, they did not exactly tranquilize me. But they did say that I was not to pray during class - even though I was in the corner by myself studying (I forget what I was praying for...I believe a friend of mine was in the hospital or something) and that I should do it outside of class, and that if I tried it again I would be sent to see the principal.

Starboy · 05-17-2003, 07:34 PM

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Originally posted by Muffinstuffer
Well, granted, now that you mention it, they did not exactly tranquilize me. But they did say that I was not to pray during class - even though I was in the corner by myself studying (I forget what I was praying for...I believe a friend of mine was in the hospital or something) and that I should do it outside of class, and that if I tried it again I would be sent to see the principal.

How could they tell? Were you doing it while you were supposed to be doing your school work?

Starboy

Rhea · 05-17-2003, 07:42 PM

Oh, I see. Well I always got sent to the principal for talking in class, too.

No one ever told me to stop thinking, though. So I guess if you do the Matt 6:6 thing you should be okay.

Seriously, and with all due respect, it is a falsehood to say that anyone stopped you from praying. No one can, no more than they can stop me from thinking.

They can and do have the right to stop you from talking though.

I always feel a tad fristrated when people claim, "They want us to stop praying" as if that's true. It's not, never has been. I kind of resent the false bad rap. Y'know? False witness and all that.

No human has ever "forced" another human to stop praying, short of causing them to become unconscious or dead. THAT'S the truth. Remember Matt 6:6.

Just an atheist public service announcement

Muffinstuffer · 05-17-2003, 07:42 PM

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Originally posted by Starboy
How could they tell? Were you doing it while you were supposed to be doing your school work?

Starboy

I guess they correctly assumed that since my hands were folded on the desk and my head was down, I was praying. School work was done.

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05-17-2003, 03:18 PM	#104
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Separation of church and state is fundamental to this nation. It may be overdone sometimes, but what does that hurt really?. When you consider the alternative- and its possible consequences----I LOVE the separation of church and state. Requiring "In God We Trust" on currency is just foolishness. No point to it. Requiring organized prayers in schools is also foolishness. No point to it. No one can stop you from praying to your Lord at any time or in any place. Fundies need to get a life and not start fights over unimportant things.

05-17-2003, 07:42 PM	#109
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	Oh, I see. Well I always got sent to the principal for talking in class, too. No one ever told me to stop thinking, though. So I guess if you do the Matt 6:6 thing you should be okay. Seriously, and with all due respect, it is a falsehood to say that anyone stopped you from praying. No one can, no more than they can stop me from thinking. They can and do have the right to stop you from talking though. I always feel a tad fristrated when people claim, "They want us to stop praying" as if that's true. It's not, never has been. I kind of resent the false bad rap. Y'know? False witness and all that. No human has ever "forced" another human to stop praying, short of causing them to become unconscious or dead. THAT'S the truth. Remember Matt 6:6. Just an atheist public service announcement

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