Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Darth Dane · 05-18-2003, 02:11 PM

Lets assume God Is, whatever God is.

God moves nature, so we can live here, yet earthquakes and other "natural" disasters exist as well.

When a human experiences an earthquake, the human will most likely perceive it as something bad, people die and stuff you know?

The human is angry at God, why didn't you create a better world?

God looks at the Human, and says, when I create the earthquake I want to do it as good or excellent as I possible can, given the circumstances, as I can't violate any of the laws of nature, you have described.

Don't you want me to be as good as I possible can?

I always do my best to fullfill all peoples wishes and prayers, but it is hard work, I have to obey the rules of humans, and natures laws and what not, plus sometimes humans have conflicting ideas, so I try to find the goldenpath between them, I seem to be succeding. I don't judge between one state or another, all prayers are always heard, and that is good, not bad.

When God gives an earthquake God sees it is good, overall the golden middle ground between all prayers at any given moment is fullfilled, yet humans are on the receiving side and sees only the reflection, and sometimes humans die, which is considered bad by most humans. So Humans sees it as a bad thing, yet God, because of Gods perspective, sees it overall as a good thing, balance was maintained.

God is saying: I am overall good
Humans is saying: God is both good and bad

How can we determine if a given experience is good or bad, if we don't see the whole picture?

It is like looking at a square inch of a painting, seeing one color, and then say that all is red, even though other colours may appear if we change our perspective. When we don't focus on the small things, we start to see many small things because the perspective is broadened. At one point we see all the colors used in the painting, and say we understand the painting because of the laws that govern the painting.

If we stop looking at the substructure of the painting we see the Big picture, this picture is the image of a man and a woman making Love. The act of making Love is the act of creation.

If we understand the substructure and the picture we can start painting ourselves. We will understand which colours and brushes to use depending on what we wanna paint.

How can we see the two sides?

To see both the picture and all the small parts, how do we do this?

Would we act differently if we saw the Big picture?

DD - Love Spliff

lpetrich · 05-18-2003, 03:17 PM

Pure horse manure.

An omnipotent being would have no trouble getting us to behave in whatever manner It sees fit -- and would be responsible for everything that happens, by commission or by omission, as the case may be.

Yes, by omission. Imagine that as you are driving, you hit some little child. And when you are hauled on court, you offer these defenses:

"I did not turn, and I did not change speed, therefore I had not done anything and thus I am not at fault."

"That little kid was not supposed to be in the road, therefore if anyone has the responsibility, it is that tyke."

And imagine yourself offering these defenses with an absolutely straight face.

Do you think that you will walk?

Also, a completely benevolent being would create Heaven and be done with it, and not act as if It was nearly impotent.

AJ113 · 05-18-2003, 05:21 PM

Darth Dane
You are simply making excuses for your god who is clearly a twat. You seem to have forgotten - your god can do anything, remember?
Now stop making excuses and admit that you think your god -if it exists- is a total bastard.

Paperstreet · 05-18-2003, 07:43 PM

If God wanted, he could show us the whole picture, but wants to keep it for himself. If God wants me to truly LOVE him, he will explain the sufferings of the world, and why it is necessary. Until then, I will not believe in him.

Soul Invictus · 05-18-2003, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Lets assume God Is, whatever God is.

God moves nature, so we can live here, yet earthquakes and other "natural" disasters exist as well.

When a human experiences an earthquake, the human will most likely perceive it as something bad, people die and stuff you know?

The human is angry at God, why didn't you create a better world?

God looks at the Human, and says, when I create the earthquake I want to do it as good or excellent as I possible can, given the circumstances, as I can't violate any of the laws of nature, you have described.

Don't you want me to be as good as I possible can?

I always do my best to fullfill all peoples wishes and prayers, but it is hard work, I have to obey the rules of humans, and natures laws and what not, plus sometimes humans have conflicting ideas, so I try to find the goldenpath between them, I seem to be succeding. I don't judge between one state or another, all prayers are always heard, and that is good, not bad.

When God gives an earthquake God sees it is good, overall the golden middle ground between all prayers at any given moment is fullfilled, yet humans are on the receiving side and sees only the reflection, and sometimes humans die, which is considered bad by most humans. So Humans sees it as a bad thing, yet God, because of Gods perspective, sees it overall as a good thing, balance was maintained.

God is saying: I am overall good
Humans is saying: God is both good and bad

How can we determine if a given experience is good or bad, if we don't see the whole picture?

It is like looking at a square inch of a painting, seeing one color, and then say that all is red, even though other colours may appear if we change our perspective. When we don't focus on the small things, we start to see many small things because the perspective is broadened. At one point we see all the colors used in the painting, and say we understand the painting because of the laws that govern the painting.

If we stop looking at the substructure of the painting we see the Big picture, this picture is the image of a man and a woman making Love. The act of making Love is the act of creation.

If we understand the substructure and the picture we can start painting ourselves. We will understand which colours and brushes to use depending on what we wanna paint.

How can we see the two sides?

To see both the picture and all the small parts, how do we do this?

Would we act differently if we saw the Big picture?

DD - Love Spliff

God wants us to understand him, right? Is this the best defense you're able to surmise? God is all-powerful right? You mean to tell me this is the best communication God can do between himself and an inferior human presence?

05-18-2003, 07:57 PM

I dont think we would act differently if we could see the whole picture. Certainly a surprising, possibly, perspective would be seen to what goes on. But our actions are our actions.

Some people who, while driving a car, would stand up in court and try and provide a defense. Which might possibly result in the childs family having to bear all costs, especially if that child was killed, and they person who was on the defense, if the 'proper' evidence was found, would walk free. With enough evidence, for example, you could prove to some people they dont exist.

But there are some who wouldn't defend what they did. There are some who know what they did and would stand up and take their due punishment.

I dont know if seeing the whole picture would affect who'd do which but it'd only provide a little more depth to their reasoning.

Grand Ol Designer

Darth Dane · 05-19-2003, 02:34 AM

An omnipotent being would have no trouble getting us to behave in whatever manner It sees fit

Yes, but obviosuly God doesn't wants that!!!

-- and would be responsible for everything that happens, by commission or by omission, as the case may be.

Yes, ultimately God is responsible for all of our actions thoughts and so on, being the first cause and God. Yet on your scale you are responsible for your actions thoughts and so on.

"I did not turn, and I did not change speed, therefore I had not done anything and thus I am not at fault."

"That little kid was not supposed to be in the road, therefore if anyone has the responsibility, it is that tyke."

He is locally responsible, for getting into the car, responding on his need to go drive(for whatever reason) and driving responsibly.

yet he is not in control of the child, which is loccally responsible for it's actions to walk close too or on the street.

If noone moved nothing would happen, when someone moves there is a risk of collidingg with other movement.

Also, a completely benevolent being would create Heaven and be done with it, and not act as if It was nearly impotent.

If so, then this reality Is heaven.

Benevolence towards freewill? "ask and you shall be given"?

You are simply making excuses for your god who is clearly a twat. You seem to have forgotten - your god can do anything, remember?

Yes, obviously God doesn't want to do as God pleases, God wants to create with humans to some degree, and co-create with us.

But God's will is always fullfilled ultimately, whether or not we want to create with God or against God. Our life which is short can be lived with God or against God.

Now stop making excuses and admit that you think your god -if it exists- is a total bastard.

As humans are, so is God: "Human was created in the image of God"

So yeah, when something good happens, God is good and just, when something evil happens, God is a bastard and unfair.

If God wanted, he could show us the whole picture, but wants to keep it for himself. If God wants me to truly LOVE him, he will explain the sufferings of the world, and why it is necessary. Until then, I will not believe in him.

How can God tell you why, if you don't believe in him, and so, can't hear God?

God wants us to understand him, right?

I don't know, I am not sure, God works in mysterious ways.
If you know God wants us to understand God, then you must have spoken to God. God, it seesm wants different humans to do different things, what God wants you to, I have no knowledge, only you can have that knowledge.

s this the best defense you're able to surmise? God is all-powerful right?

Afaik, yeah.

You mean to tell me this is the best communication God can do between himself and an inferior human presence?

I don't know, I admit I don't know much at all.

With enough evidence, for example, you could prove to some people they dont exist.

LOL

But there are some who wouldn't defend what they did. There are some who know what they did and would stand up and take their due punishment.

Yes, be responsible for your actions, and God will be responsible for God's actions

DD - Love Spliff

Ronin · 05-19-2003, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Lets assume God Is, whatever God is.

I'm game ~

Whispers · 05-19-2003, 03:49 AM

There are many issues with suffering and why it is there? It has been suggested by some believers that suffering is necessary for many reasons.

An example I read by CS Lewis, is that if you bang your shin into a table, it hurts. This pain is a warning that you have been hurt, so you may take whatever action is necessary to sort the situation out. You need that pain as a warning. Lets say that a madman attacks you, and cuts your arm off with a machete. You are in blind agony. Is it gods fault that you are in pain? Can God stop the madman from attacking you? If he did, would that not contravene the freewill of the madman?

Now that above idea does not tally with certain situations like plane crashes and volcanoes erupting, which kills innocents. I dont now how believers see that type of thing?

Ronin · 05-19-2003, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Now that above idea does not tally with certain situations like plane crashes and volcanoes erupting, which kills innocents. I dont now how believers see that type of thing?

<sheep>God is still good and working according to His Plan (tm)</sheep>

05-18-2003, 02:11 PM	#1
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	The two sides. Lets assume God Is, whatever God is. God moves nature, so we can live here, yet earthquakes and other "natural" disasters exist as well. When a human experiences an earthquake, the human will most likely perceive it as something bad, people die and stuff you know? The human is angry at God, why didn't you create a better world? God looks at the Human, and says, when I create the earthquake I want to do it as good or excellent as I possible can, given the circumstances, as I can't violate any of the laws of nature, you have described. Don't you want me to be as good as I possible can? I always do my best to fullfill all peoples wishes and prayers, but it is hard work, I have to obey the rules of humans, and natures laws and what not, plus sometimes humans have conflicting ideas, so I try to find the goldenpath between them, I seem to be succeding. I don't judge between one state or another, all prayers are always heard, and that is good, not bad. When God gives an earthquake God sees it is good, overall the golden middle ground between all prayers at any given moment is fullfilled, yet humans are on the receiving side and sees only the reflection, and sometimes humans die, which is considered bad by most humans. So Humans sees it as a bad thing, yet God, because of Gods perspective, sees it overall as a good thing, balance was maintained. God is saying: I am overall good Humans is saying: God is both good and bad How can we determine if a given experience is good or bad, if we don't see the whole picture? It is like looking at a square inch of a painting, seeing one color, and then say that all is red, even though other colours may appear if we change our perspective. When we don't focus on the small things, we start to see many small things because the perspective is broadened. At one point we see all the colors used in the painting, and say we understand the painting because of the laws that govern the painting. If we stop looking at the substructure of the painting we see the Big picture, this picture is the image of a man and a woman making Love. The act of making Love is the act of creation. If we understand the substructure and the picture we can start painting ourselves. We will understand which colours and brushes to use depending on what we wanna paint. How can we see the two sides? To see both the picture and all the small parts, how do we do this? Would we act differently if we saw the Big picture? DD - Love Spliff

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05-18-2003, 03:17 PM	#2
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Pure horse manure. An omnipotent being would have no trouble getting us to behave in whatever manner It sees fit -- and would be responsible for everything that happens, by commission or by omission, as the case may be. Yes, by omission. Imagine that as you are driving, you hit some little child. And when you are hauled on court, you offer these defenses: "I did not turn, and I did not change speed, therefore I had not done anything and thus I am not at fault." "That little kid was not supposed to be in the road, therefore if anyone has the responsibility, it is that tyke." And imagine yourself offering these defenses with an absolutely straight face. Do you think that you will walk? Also, a completely benevolent being would create Heaven and be done with it, and not act as if It was nearly impotent.

05-18-2003, 05:21 PM	#3
AJ113 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hull UK Posts: 854	Darth Dane You are simply making excuses for your god who is clearly a twat. You seem to have forgotten - your god can do anything, remember? Now stop making excuses and admit that you think your god -if it exists- is a total bastard.

05-18-2003, 07:43 PM	#4
Paperstreet Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 175	If God wanted, he could show us the whole picture, but wants to keep it for himself. If God wants me to truly LOVE him, he will explain the sufferings of the world, and why it is necessary. Until then, I will not believe in him.

05-18-2003, 07:57 PM	#6
GrandDesigner Guest Posts: n/a	I dont think we would act differently if we could see the whole picture. Certainly a surprising, possibly, perspective would be seen to what goes on. But our actions are our actions. Some people who, while driving a car, would stand up in court and try and provide a defense. Which might possibly result in the childs family having to bear all costs, especially if that child was killed, and they person who was on the defense, if the 'proper' evidence was found, would walk free. With enough evidence, for example, you could prove to some people they dont exist. But there are some who wouldn't defend what they did. There are some who know what they did and would stand up and take their due punishment. I dont know if seeing the whole picture would affect who'd do which but it'd only provide a little more depth to their reasoning. Grand Ol Designer

05-19-2003, 02:34 AM	#7
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	An omnipotent being would have no trouble getting us to behave in whatever manner It sees fit Yes, but obviosuly God doesn't wants that!!! -- and would be responsible for everything that happens, by commission or by omission, as the case may be. Yes, ultimately God is responsible for all of our actions thoughts and so on, being the first cause and God. Yet on your scale you are responsible for your actions thoughts and so on. "I did not turn, and I did not change speed, therefore I had not done anything and thus I am not at fault." "That little kid was not supposed to be in the road, therefore if anyone has the responsibility, it is that tyke." He is locally responsible, for getting into the car, responding on his need to go drive(for whatever reason) and driving responsibly. yet he is not in control of the child, which is loccally responsible for it's actions to walk close too or on the street. If noone moved nothing would happen, when someone moves there is a risk of collidingg with other movement. Also, a completely benevolent being would create Heaven and be done with it, and not act as if It was nearly impotent. If so, then this reality Is heaven. Benevolence towards freewill? "ask and you shall be given"? You are simply making excuses for your god who is clearly a twat. You seem to have forgotten - your god can do anything, remember? Yes, obviously God doesn't want to do as God pleases, God wants to create with humans to some degree, and co-create with us. But God's will is always fullfilled ultimately, whether or not we want to create with God or against God. Our life which is short can be lived with God or against God. Now stop making excuses and admit that you think your god -if it exists- is a total bastard. As humans are, so is God: "Human was created in the image of God" So yeah, when something good happens, God is good and just, when something evil happens, God is a bastard and unfair. If God wanted, he could show us the whole picture, but wants to keep it for himself. If God wants me to truly LOVE him, he will explain the sufferings of the world, and why it is necessary. Until then, I will not believe in him. How can God tell you why, if you don't believe in him, and so, can't hear God? God wants us to understand him, right? I don't know, I am not sure, God works in mysterious ways. If you know God wants us to understand God, then you must have spoken to God. God, it seesm wants different humans to do different things, what God wants you to, I have no knowledge, only you can have that knowledge. s this the best defense you're able to surmise? God is all-powerful right? Afaik, yeah. You mean to tell me this is the best communication God can do between himself and an inferior human presence? I don't know, I admit I don't know much at all. With enough evidence, for example, you could prove to some people they dont exist. LOL But there are some who wouldn't defend what they did. There are some who know what they did and would stand up and take their due punishment. Yes, be responsible for your actions, and God will be responsible for God's actions DD - Love Spliff

05-19-2003, 03:49 AM	#9
Whispers Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Drawing Closer to God inch by inch... Posts: 179	There are many issues with suffering and why it is there? It has been suggested by some believers that suffering is necessary for many reasons. An example I read by CS Lewis, is that if you bang your shin into a table, it hurts. This pain is a warning that you have been hurt, so you may take whatever action is necessary to sort the situation out. You need that pain as a warning. Lets say that a madman attacks you, and cuts your arm off with a machete. You are in blind agony. Is it gods fault that you are in pain? Can God stop the madman from attacking you? If he did, would that not contravene the freewill of the madman? Now that above idea does not tally with certain situations like plane crashes and volcanoes erupting, which kills innocents. I dont now how believers see that type of thing?

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