Mark

Personally, I'm against the idea. People in the UK simply don't know enough about the EU to make a fair decision. They're fed trash by the Murdoch press that makes them believe the EU is the Third Reich reborn or something.

I don't think the EU is on the brink of becoming a 'super-state' (much as I hate the phrase), but even if it were, my opinion is, if it is democratic, I don't care what country I am in.

True, the EU isn't very democratic, but then the UK isn't exactly a beacon of democracy either. Those people who oppose the EU because it 'threatens' Britain's 'democracy' oppose the extention of democracy in the EU, because it promotes supranationalism. So we're stuck in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation for the Union.

We need more public awareness of the EU.

What's everyone else think?

Hugo Holbling

Do you refer to the possible referendum on the Euro, or the EU in general?

Anyone interested in the EU could do worse than go here. Plenty of information (or propaganda, perhaps?) is available, including refutations of the nonsense we see daily in the Mail or Sun.

As i recall (although i could be wrong), the Europa idea was intended to bring about such close political and (especially) economic ties that the nations of Europe could never again go to war with each other. Although newer problems have presented themselves, it seems to have been successful in that the thought of war with France would strike a Brit as ridiculous (but not a Yankee, i suppose...). Complaining about government from Brussels strikes me as strange as few are clamouring for the Swiss model, while Westminster no longer even makes a pretense of caring for the opinions of the people they govern. Additionally, an obvious benefit to look forward to is the proposed constitution and acceptance of the Fundamental Charter Of Human Rights, both of which provide a level of protection and guarantee for the citizen that Brits have not had before, even if you disagree with the very idea of them.

The EU site will allow citizens to vote on its future. I made the point in so doing that more effort needs to be made in publicising the benefits and downfalls in order to take the impetus away from extremists on both sides and give people sufficient information to make up their own minds. I recommend that all EU posters take this opportunity.

In any event, it seems to me (and i don't propose to make a detailed argument for my vague impression) that the recent (and future) actions of the US will have as much formative influence on the EU as the citizens thereof.

Proxima Centauri

The European Union has done a great deal to ensure peace and democracy in Europe. The European Union was founded in 1958 to help prevent Germany or Italy becoming military dictatorships again. It was then the EEC. In this the European Union has succeeded. Italy is democratic. First West Germany, then all Germany became democratic. What could have happened without the EU? We know what Germany and Italy became like before the Second World War. I wish the Murdock press would pay attention to that. :banghead:
Before the 1970�s Spain, Portugal and Greece were dictatorships without free speech. Commercial interests in those three countries wanted the business opportunities which membership of the EEC would bring. These commercial interests encouraged Spain, Portugal and Greece to become democratic and join the EEC. The political situation could have been much worse in Britain and Europe with dictatorships on our doorstep. I wish the Murdock press would pay attention to that. :banghead:
All the former Communist countries of west of Ukraine, Bellerose and Moldova are now democracies and most have now successfully applied to join the European Union. Russia is now a democracy but it is not a stable democracy. All the military and political leaders in Russia spent their formative years under the former Soviet Union. Patriotic Russians might decide to try and make Russia great as the Soviet Union was. How do we stop them? We make sure Europe is strong and united so there are no opportunities for military ambition there. That way patriotic Russions will concentrate on furthering their country's interests democratically and diplomatically. Russia cannot be as strong as the former Soviet Union but can still cause trouble. How much worse would it be for Europe and the world if the military tensions of the Cold War were revived?
The good things which the European Union has brought are taken for granted. People simply don�t consider the alternatives. I wish the Murdock press would pay attention to a great deal. I wish the Neoconservatives in the United States religious right would pay attention to a great deal before they criticize or try and weaken the European Union. :banghead:

meritocrat

I feel a referendum on the new EU constitution is necessary.

Having read what is to be included in the first draft (such as a common defence policy) is reprehensible. An EU constitution is simply a stepping stone towards a federal Europe.

As for a referendum on British entry of EMU, I support that too. Even though there is speculation that the five tests would not be met, it's still prudent in my view to allow the people to decide whether we should join the single currency.

Proxima Centauri

meritocrat wrote, "Having read what is to be included in the first draft (such as a common defence policy) is reprehensible."
Why is a common defence policy reprehensible, meritocrat?
I believe having the United States dictate our foreign and defence policy to us Europeans is reprehensible, meritocrat! We have no say in United States elections. We can vote in European elections.
I believe pooling sovreignty with Europe is better than surrendering sovreignty to the United States.

Lamunus

The EU does have a remarkable effect on it's neighbours, especially in Eastern Europe since the Cold War, which threatened to become a hotch-potch of nationalist states like Serbia became. Further conflagrations in the Balkans are doused by threatening to refuse membership, and Ankarra has made reforms on it's Kurdish policy that would have been unthinkable just a decade ago. And there is talk that one of the reasons a Turkish invasion of northern Iraq in the war was halted was very unamused looks from Brussels.

But the EU is a wonderful resepticle for political responsibility from the member states - if they economy's faltering, it's the EU's fault, if cod stocks are falling, its the EU's fault, if the number of asylum seekers are growing, it's the EU's fault. Unfortunately, the British have an attitude that is more suited to the 19th century, normally put down to the fact that we haven't had the humbling experience of military defeat like all other European powers.

Personally I find it very difficult to want to live here when there isn't a single party I can vote for. It's sad, because I'm an Englishman; I want to English football and cricket teams to win, and I love aspects of English culture, like our music and cinema and especially the unique nature of our pubs and bars. Britain was the first industrialised nation in the world, and for better or worse generations of Britons were the most forward thinking people on the planet. But increasingly we emulate the culture of our main political ally, and it's very depressing. Change in culture should take place when there is an influx of a new racial mix, or the best bits of close neighbours. Instead we have mediocre aspects of what remains a violent young nation - pubs are replaced with identical bars, the wide range of music is replaced with a wide range of people singing the same songs and poor films are shoved down the throat. Even when we were a violent immature Imperial Power, we could at least say we were our own; now we follow in the shadow of a foreign Imperial Power. A backward step if ever there was one; our worst position for a thousand years. This is why I want a strong Europe; to preserve the best aspects of two dozen ancient nations, not destroy them all with the culture of young, violent, racist, unequal society. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with America, I just don't want my children to become them at the expense of my own culture.

Sorry about that, just needed to get that out of my system

Lamunus

Proxima Centauri

There is good and bad in the European Union. Overall I feel there is much more good than bad.

Howay the Toon

Re " a federal europe".

By any reasonable definition of the word Federal, we already are in a Federal Europe and have been so since the Single European Act of 1986 signed by none other than M Thatcher (ooh the irony). That act introduced majority voting on EU law and made EU law enforceable in British courts.

The current constitutional convention is a much less constitutionally significant step than SEU.

There is a problem with a democratic deficit in the EU institutions but the only solution to this is extensions of European wide democratic instituitions (strengthen the parliament, a European presidency) but that it is resisted because it is "federal".

The other problem often complained of is the EU pushing into areas which should be the preserve of the individual states. The obvious solution is to have a clear constitutional statement of the areas over which the EU has jurisdiction and the areas over which it does not. But that is also resisted because it would be "federal".

So many ironies:

The issues which exercise the "anti-federalists" most can only be addressed by embracing the federal model and making it work properly and are exacerbated by the resistance to federalism.

The most significant step towards federalism occurred under Mrs T. Its most vocal oponent.

British people banging on about the sanctity of national sovereignty and the inappropriateness of multi nationalism. Which country do they think they live in. CLue: its the UNITED kingdom. Oh look a multi-national state.

Proxima Centauri

This should tell you about the principle of subsidiarity in the European union. Sorry, I haven't had time to read it. This IT Centre closes in less than 15 minutes.:
banghead:

meritocrat

Who says that the US dictates our foreign and defence policy?

I think we shouldn't rely on the US to aid the EU in every issue pertaining to defence, but that does not mean we have to 'pool' sovereignty with other EU nations in terms of defence.