Freethought & Rationalism Archive

frostymama · 10-30-2002, 11:57 PM

Right now I don't want to scare her and make her run back the other way. She wants to know what other people believe... but I want be very careful to show her that people with different beliefs can be tolerant and supportive of one another without compromising their ideals. I'm trying to think of sites that don't tend to be hostile towards Xianity, but will give her a positive exposure to other world religions and philosophies. My goal right now is not to deconvert her, but to let her see that everyone who is not a fundy isn't out there sacrificing Xian babies to Satan and actively campaigning to make it illegal to pray to Jesus.

So far I have suggested:

<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/</a>
<a href="http://www.beliefnet.com/" target="_blank">http://www.beliefnet.com/</a>

She said she wanted to know more about atheism (she always thought atheist = nihilist) but I don't think she is quite ready for it here yet. I guarantee the first time she posted an appologetic and a strong atheist pounced on it (and rightfully so) she would break down in tears. I want her to get her toes wet before she jumps into the deep end to swim with the sharks.

Are there any good sites that I can suggest that she can cut her teeth on? (She isn't a YEC and is trying to move away from literalism... if that helps).

AJ the greek · 10-31-2002, 04:48 AM

<a href="http://www.losingmyreligion.com" target="_blank">www.losingmyreligion.com</a>

This is a great site, that covers many of the bases that you would see at II, but in a much softer, nicer context, mainly along the lines of moral outrage(as opposed to a deeper philosophic argument) at some of the absurdities of belief such as:

(Index follows, go to the site for the articles.)

Quote:

Articles index

Bible questions
NEW! Interviews with Christians by Darcy West
A must read for Christians and non-Christians alike. Darcy's no-nonsense questions get to the heart of the matter.

Heaven and Hell
Free Will 1
Free Will 2
Free Will 3
Free Will 4
Prayer 1
Prayer 2
Interview with a Calvanist

The relativity of Bible ethics by Joe Edward Barnhard(Next time your pastor claims that the world practices moral relativism, while the Bible teaches moral absolutes, take a look at this.)

Bible vulgarities and obscenities compiled by Donald Morgan(Christians are first to jump on the censorship bandwagon when it comes to banning books from school libraries. Indecency and obscenity are the usual reasons. Yet why do they turn a blind eye when it comes to the Bible?)

Questions about Genesis by Darcy West(A good analysis of all the pitfalls Christians encounter when trying to take this account literally, plus insights into the moral character of God as portrayed in the Bible's first book.)

Scientific refutation of the Bible Codes by Brendan McKay(The deaths of Indira Ghandi, Itzak Rabin, JFK and Abraham Lincoln-- these were all predicted, not in the Bible, but in Moby Dick! See how using the same methods as the Bible code advocates, seemingly amazing predictions can be found everywhere.)

The problem with an inexperienced God by Darcy West(Indecision, faith, uncertainty, parenthood, falling in love-- these are all things that God would know nothing about. How empathetic can He be, then, to the human condition?)

Evangelism
The Great Commission by Emery Lee(Hey-- before you hand that little yellow tract to the guy next to you at the bus stop, be sure you understand what you're really doing! The absurdity of the Great Commission, exposed here.)

Abortionists: the perfect evangelists by Emery Lee(We don't like abortion either, but if you're a Christian, you should love it-- it's the only guaranteed ticket to heaven!)

The problem with testimonies by Emery Lee(Before you raise your hand next Sunday and walk down the aisle because of a moving testimony, be sure you consider the other side of the story.)

Those darned conspiring unbelievers by Emery Lee*(So what's this conspiracy unbelievers are engaged in that makes God feel he must burn us forever in hell for it?)

Salvation
Salvation--what's the big hurry? by Emery Lee(If God lives forever, why does he allow us only a human lifetime to repent? Eighty-some odd years is less than a blink of an eye for God. And Christians say his mercy is great? Wonder what small mercy is like.)

The Editor goes to church by Farrel Till(Farrel Till asks the question, how much could God really suffer for our sins?)

Salvation questions by Darcy West(With questions like "should punishment serve a purpose" and "can love be bought with threats of punishment or with promises of reward," Sarah takes an indepth look at the problems with the Christian "plan of salvation.")

Blaise Pascal, Las Vegas and Chinook winds by Jerry Billings(Another look at the infamous "Pascal's Wager," and why it still doesn't make sense.)

Sin
The absurdity of original sin and salvation by Kenneth Harding(Why the idea of original sin, and our subsequent "need" to be saved from it, doesn't make sense.)

Sin nature and free will by Emery Lee(How "sin nature" is really free will, and why humans cannot have one without the other.)

The abuse by Christianity by Brian Hayward(A comparison of the excuses Christians make for God's allowing them to suffer, and the excuses battered women make for their abusive partners. The similarity is uncanny.)

Prayer
Answers to prayer by Lee Salisbury(A former Pentacostal minister looks at the psychological impact of expecting your prayers to be answered.

Prayer questions by Darcy West(Do prayers affect what God will do? These and other probing questions explored here.)

Heaven & hell
Why there are no flowers in heaven by Emery Lee
(Heaven ain't no cakewalk either.)

Will there be free will in heaven? by Darcy West(Another problem with the whole heaven/sin/salvation thing.)

Hell by Emery Lee(Really think about it, next time your pastor tells you so righteously that people should burn in hell.)

Robots for Jesus by Darcy West(See how far Christians will go to defend their belief in hell, and their reasons for why it's absolutely good and moral.)

Social issues
Sex by Emery Lee(Everybody's favorite topic, including Christians, and why they're way off base (again).)

WWJP? by Howard Thompson(With all this sudden desire to pray at school football games, Christians would do well to consider, "where would Jesus pray?")

What does the Bible say about abortion?(Before you wave a sign at that anti-abortion rally, take a look at how the Bible regards the value human life.)

Letter to Dr. Laura by Kevin Harding(The famous letter to the famous radio doc, luckily she doesn't follow her own advice.)

Letter to Southern Baptists by Steve Blow(They're at it again-- luckily they don't follow the Bible's advice completely either.)

Praise the Lord, pass the ammo by Steve Chapman(On the heels of well-publicized school shootings, Christians would have us believe that their religion is the answer to these problems. But is it?)

Ten commandments on the schoolroom wall? by Kenneth H. Bonnell(Take a look at what the 10 commandments would really teach our kids.)

Americans more churchgoing than ever by Richard Morin(How is America's church attendance helping it?)

Concerning Christian charity by Dr. Tim Gorski(Is Christianity really such a force for good in the world?)

Can we judge God? by Emery Lee(Who are we to judge God? Well, lets see.)

Absolute moral standards-- are they possible? by Alan Urdaibay(Christians believe that without God, there can be no moral absolutes. But can there be any moral absolutes at all?)

The Biblical position on women by Dennis McKinsey
(Elizabeth Cady Stanton, once said: "The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of woman's emancipation." See what you think)

This site does not ever seem to be updated, but it is really good in what it is able to cover.

sakrilege · 10-31-2002, 10:08 AM

On a thread in SL&S southernhybrid suggested this link to someone...

<a href="http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319472" target="_blank">Walk away from fundamentalism</a>

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: sakrilege ]</p>

GeoTheo · 10-31-2002, 02:22 PM

If she wants to be a more liberal Christian and not an atheist or agnostic she can check out the websites of all of the mainline denominations of Christianity such as Presbyterian USA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Eposcopal, United Methodist. They also list their positions on various social issues. None of these are Fundamentalist denominations. I would say the most liberal of the group would be United Methodist. One of the main differences I see with mainline as opposed to fundamentalist churches is that you can become a member without having to agree on every minor doctrine.
Does she go to the kind of Church that believes all other denominations of Christianity are wrong? Some are like that call it the doctrine of Seperation. That means they believe it is a sin to associate with other churches that disagree on things, like the method of baptism for example.

frostymama · 11-01-2002, 06:07 AM

Her husband is a minister so they just do church at home. She isn't looking to deconvert... she just wants to be more tolerant of other views and learn what people believe.

She is currently being ostracized for not being "Christian enough" by her local Christian community. She has been accused of being "New Age" and has been shunned by some of her long-time friends. I'm really proud of her.

Thanks to everyone for the links and information. I will pass it along.

10-30-2002, 11:57 PM	#1
frostymama Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 927	Good religion sites for a longtime fundy trying to become a more liberal Xian? Right now I don't want to scare her and make her run back the other way. She wants to know what other people believe... but I want be very careful to show her that people with different beliefs can be tolerant and supportive of one another without compromising their ideals. I'm trying to think of sites that don't tend to be hostile towards Xianity, but will give her a positive exposure to other world religions and philosophies. My goal right now is not to deconvert her, but to let her see that everyone who is not a fundy isn't out there sacrificing Xian babies to Satan and actively campaigning to make it illegal to pray to Jesus. So far I have suggested: <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/</a> <a href="http://www.beliefnet.com/" target="_blank">http://www.beliefnet.com/</a> She said she wanted to know more about atheism (she always thought atheist = nihilist) but I don't think she is quite ready for it here yet. I guarantee the first time she posted an appologetic and a strong atheist pounced on it (and rightfully so) she would break down in tears. I want her to get her toes wet before she jumps into the deep end to swim with the sharks. Are there any good sites that I can suggest that she can cut her teeth on? (She isn't a YEC and is trying to move away from literalism... if that helps).

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10-31-2002, 10:08 AM	#3
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	On a thread in SL&S southernhybrid suggested this link to someone... <a href="http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319472" target="_blank">Walk away from fundamentalism</a> [ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: sakrilege ]</p>

10-31-2002, 02:22 PM	#4
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	If she wants to be a more liberal Christian and not an atheist or agnostic she can check out the websites of all of the mainline denominations of Christianity such as Presbyterian USA, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Eposcopal, United Methodist. They also list their positions on various social issues. None of these are Fundamentalist denominations. I would say the most liberal of the group would be United Methodist. One of the main differences I see with mainline as opposed to fundamentalist churches is that you can become a member without having to agree on every minor doctrine. Does she go to the kind of Church that believes all other denominations of Christianity are wrong? Some are like that call it the doctrine of Seperation. That means they believe it is a sin to associate with other churches that disagree on things, like the method of baptism for example.

11-01-2002, 06:07 AM	#5
frostymama Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 927	Her husband is a minister so they just do church at home. She isn't looking to deconvert... she just wants to be more tolerant of other views and learn what people believe. She is currently being ostracized for not being "Christian enough" by her local Christian community. She has been accused of being "New Age" and has been shunned by some of her long-time friends. I'm really proud of her. Thanks to everyone for the links and information. I will pass it along.

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