Orion

The NT authors considered Jesus' second coming to be imminent. Translation: "real soon".

• Mark 9:1 - And he said to them, I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.
• Luke 21:31-32 - Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
• 1 Corinthians 7:26, 29, 31 - Because of the present distress, I think it is good for you to remain as you are [i.e., unmarried] . . . What I mean, brothers, is that the appointed time has grown short . . . For this world in its present form is passing away.
• Hebrews 10:37 - For in just a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.
• 1 Thess. 4:16-17 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
• James 5:7-9 - Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. . . You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.
• 1 Peter 1:20 - He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
• 1 Peter 4:7 - The end of all things is near.
• Rev. 22:20 - Surely I come quickly.

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Orion ]</p>

Hondo

I've heard:

God doesn't tell time the same way we do! The days in Genesis were much longer than the 24 hour days we think of. Actually the days referred to in the bible were thousands of years.

The NT writers misunderstood, or were merely putting their very human opinions forward.

They were speaking of the generation of mankind, from it's inception, to it's ultimate demise at end times.

The Greek, Jewish, Arimaic, etc. words for day have multiple meanings.

Etc, Etc, Etc.

There are as many explanations, as there are xtian denominations. Trying to pin them down on this particular point is like trying to catch a jack-rabbit on a giant greasy griddle, on a hot August day.

Hondo

Peter Kirby

Many Americans continue to believe this; they take the verses in the Bible to be talking to them today as Christians. It seems that eschatological ideas are typically "real soon" expectations. Apocalyptic doesn't have the same flavor if the end will come long after you die.

<a href="http://www.mcjonline.com/news/news3562.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mcjonline.com/news/news3562.htm</a>

"47 percent of those who believe in Armageddon think the Antichrist is on earth now."

"45 percent of the same group believe Jesus will return in their lifetime."

best,
Peter Kirby

RyanS2

Oh dear, me without my psychology textbooks.... (Actually, I have them, but it's very late and I don't feel like digging around for them, I'll post up the real story as soon as I can). As I recall, there was a famous experiment in the 1960's involving a cult. Its founder was a woman who received telepathic communications with aliens, who wrote down the information. Three college boys heard about her, and decided to do their doctoral thesis on her cult following. She claimed the Earth would be destroyed by the aliens, who would pick up the pious ones and take them to a blissful place of after-existence.

The boys had to work breathtakingly because sometimes the woman would receive visions all together, sometimes not for days. They would take turns recording, using times where they went to the bathroom to scribble notes. The lady prophecized an exact date the aliens would come.

On that day, absolutely nothing happened. However, here is where the boys lived in psychological infamy. Different people had popped up from time to time at the meeting, and when the prophecy failed, they just left. However, the ones who had invested the most time and money into her took the failed prophecy as a sign she WAS right!!! She told them that she the aliens told her they were spared because of her pious followers, and they continued to give her money and support.

If you watch t.v., you may recall an episode of "Law and Order: CSI", (I can't remember which one it was, the one with the tall guy who is kind of strange, but very observant and his female partner), who is investigating the death of a millionairre whose wife and kids have died. He was apparently sending money to a girl who didn't exist. The fake girl had accumulated a cult following, and the man had been killed by one of the followers. Rather than believe that it was a deliberate hoax, she killed him to save her belief, and the evidence against verifiability only further strengthened her resolve. That episode was based on these and other findings.

Carry this over into how Christianity works. The "End of times" had been prophecized since the Days of Jesus until now. In EVERY generation, the rapture was nigh, you can check to see failed prophecies for the rapture and verify that. Believers only take this as a sign that they are right, and they continue dogmatically to believe it.

The real story about the kids is an interesting read, so I'll research it and post it up tomorrow when I get time. This, along with things like communal reinforcement, (I can't remember going to one sermon in years in which the "Day of the Lord" was not mentioned), explain the phenom of believing in the impossible and absurd. This also explains UFO cults as well.

Ether

I really don't know why people keep arguing about the second coming of jesus. He is not coming at all and thats about it.

Some people (Christians for the most part) want to think about salvation and that they will get another chance in a world in wich they won't have to take resposability for anything. They seem to be happy believing in that, let them. Why turn yourself crazy asking questions about something you already know the answers? What do you want to prove?

Do you really think Christians will give up their faith because of some proof? I don't think so. Let them believe in their stuff and ask them to do the same to you.

Tercel

Orion,
Try not to confuse "the Kingdom of God" (which consists of Christian fellowship on earth and which did "come with power" in Acts) with the 2nd Coming.

RyanS2,
You're not exactly correct in saying that Christians have always thought the 2nd Coming (which shouldn't be confused with the rapture -the "rapture" is a recent fundamentalist interpretation of the 2nd Coming) to be nigh. For example one of the early church Fathers (I think it was Hippolytus (c172-c236), but I may be wrong), wrote a work on why the the 2nd Coming wasn't nigh since the 2nd Coming could not occur until after the dissolution of the Roman Empire. (Roman persecution had resumed, leading some Christians to claim it must be the end-times.)

[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

Hondo

Tercel,

No where in Orion's original post is the Kingdom of God mentioned. All of his quotes refer to Jebus' second coming. You completely avoid any reference to the original intent of this thread. Surprise, Surprise.


Your example of Hyppolytus clearly shows that xtians have mistakenly eluded to the end of times. I believe that the Roman Empire was dissolved quite a long time ago, if so, then Hippolytus must clearly fit into the very mistaken xtian category.

Thank you for another one to add to my list. "Not all xtians have believed that the end of times was imminent, they've only been wrong on when." Close but no cigar, give that man a qyuppy doll. (not sure at all on the spelling)

Hondo

Unit Offline

Er, Hondo, Orion did mention the Kingdom of G-daddy once -- see Mark 9:1, above. Of course, I'm pretty sure it is referring to Jesus II: the Revenge, since if you look at Matthew's version of the line (16:28), he mentions "the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Ah well.

David Bowden

I seem to remember reading about something like that - took place in the Chicago area, and the researchers were in the room with her the whole time, recording what went on, cult members giving up or re-framing the disaster more favorably for their cult. Now if only I could remember where I read that...

The only excuses I've ever heard for the lack of a second coming either make "soon" mean something very different from what the NT authors (or anyone else) would ordinarily mean by that word, or they put the blame on Christians for not evangelizing the world fast enough - so God has had to change his (perfect?) plan by a few thousand years (so far).

Neither explanation satisfies; "soon" means soon, unless you specify otherwise (and the NT doesn't - certainly not in context for the readers of Revelation or the epistles prior to their collection and cross-referencing). Jesus (or whomever put those words in his mouth) was just wrong.

-Wanderer

[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>

RyanS2

Wanderer, I have the full story. This is from Morton Hunt's "The Story of Psychology", p. 407. You got most the details correct, but this case took place in a town near Minneapolis, though there probably have been reduplicate experiments. I thought the boys were undergrads, but apparently they were all graduates.

There were three researchers: Lewin, Festinger, and Schachter. They wrote a book in 1956 called "When Prophecies Fail". (How ironic). The woman was called Mrs. Marian Keech, (they changed her real name), who was receiving telepathic images from the planet of Clarion, from the Guardians of Clarion. The messages came in the form of automatic writing while she was under a trance. Mrs. Keech predicted that on December 21, of 1954, the aliens would come.

As you know, no such thing has yet happened. Some of the members who had been doubtful or unsure left the group. The members who were most committed, some had dropped their jobs and sold all their possessions, became just the opposite. They were more convinced she was correct. The term used for this was "cognitive dissonance". Its one of the theories in psychology that's shown itself over and over again to be true, though Festinger received a lot of criticism for it. Probably for the exact reasons we're discussing it now. Festinger called the criticism "garbage" and said the only reason it was criticized was because it presented a "not very idealistic" picture of humankind.