Ojuice5001

The suicidal person thinks that life contains more evil than good, and will stay that way forever. As a practical matter, most suicide counselors will argue that this is not true, but I'm interested in the assumption that it is, for the person in question. Say someone comes from a squalid home in an inner city of Iraq, for instance. This person has no hope of achieving a better life or helping anyone else to do so. But he is able-bodied--I say this because the terminally ill seem to be a special case. Now, it seems like most people would think that there are few or no considerations that would make suicide the right choice, even though this person's life is not worth living. What could ground this idea?

It must be that there is a scale of goods. Experiences are better than the goods that can be predicated of inanimate objects, such as an ordered structure. Thus, an object that realizes the higher goods is better, even if it incurs a lot of evils. Are there any other solutions?

Francois Tremblay

I am not sure why most people do not value suicide more. Since people tend to believe in sacrifice and moral systems like utilitarianism or emotionalism, it would seem that suicide would be a much more attractive option than it is in our North American societies. Perhaps it is simply evolutionary instinct. An interesting subject to be sure, I'd like to see studies on the question...

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]</p>

jpbrooks

The desire to die is not a normal state of mind. Most living things (on this planet), that are capable of desiring anything, normally desire to survive. I can (sort of) understand why a person who has a physiological condition that is difficult to live with, for one reason or another, would opt for physician assisted suicide, for example (though I consider this issue controversial). But suicide for purely psychological reasons doesn't seem warranted if help is available.

Whether suicide can be justified morally is a complex issue that depends on things like one's moral value system, one's ability to reason morally, and the circumstances in which the suicide occurs or is contemplated, (for example, a young child who takes her own life because she truly believes that she is an unbearable financial burden on her parent[s]).
In any case, it seems apparent that a moral value system that favors suicide in some circumstances must be one that holds something else besides one's own life as more important.

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: jpbrooks ]</p>

Keenanvin

I beleive suicide is more prevalent in Western Cultures is partly becuase of the individualistic views of society. Ine astern and Asian cultures the focus is based on avoiding confrontation and keeping family values and image in society. Western cultures seem to stress 'being on your own' and so people seem less reliant on others and are less willing to go seek help becuase it 'is their own fault'. But is suicide really a problem? Of course people die, but they will anyways. I geuss it all depends on your perspective.

sbaii

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I agree. Our culture is also becoming more and more stressful. The rate of life is accelerating and if you buy into the materialism, the stakes are constantly being raised. Then again more is needed to keep informed today,i.e., cell phone, internet, computer. I don't have any statistics on suicide, but my perception is that most suicides are accompanied with brutal murders. This may change as our society gets older. For a long time Japan was looked to as a culture where suicide was the honorable thing to do. I don't know if that is still true.

1sec

Suicide occurs when the survival instinct has faded enough for the guy not to care about it anymore.

The East is more autocratic, and the survival instincts are sharp.

The West is more democratic, and instincts have gone dazing.

There is a catch, though. The West struggles indeed between comfort and stress. If you live one the comfortable side, there is no reason that you should commit suicide; if you're on the stressful side, then what you're waiting for? Just go do it.
<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Francois Tremblay

Doesn't make any sense Keenanvin. If Western civilisation was truly more individualist, then people would value their own lives more. It is collectivism that is compatible with suicide, not self-valuing.

Of course, I question how much individualist our society really is. A recent survey by Barna Research seems to indicate that most people are dependant on others for their values.

svensky

Because most people realise that suicde is the choice of the coward and the completely selfish.

That and a niggling feeling that perhaps it wont all simply end at death. "Out of the frying pan into the fire", as it where.

Jason

John Page

Having not committed suicide I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment on this thread. However, when things have been pretty bad I've thought about it and then wondered why I felt cowardly for not doing it afterwards!

Guess suicide is just life's way of telling you something. Maybe the "self worth" stuff is an evolutionary thing, leaving more resources to your successors, not being a burden etc.

P.S. Anybody who suggests I should go ahead see what happens - you first!

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: John Page ]</p>

JerryM

I agree that Eastern cultures may tend to value the welfare of the group over that of the individual. But what's so disturbing is this phenomenon of young Middle Eastern men (and women now too) who are killing themselves for political purposes and murdering others in the process. And they seem eager to do so. How perverted is a religious teaching which would make this heroic? Their own suicide may be a problem only for their families, but it is an enormous problem when they try to take us with them.