Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spaz · 03-18-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No i rolled my eyes at you because you make things stupidly complicated just so you can hear yourself talk (*type*).

Who said God couldn't exist within time while simultaneously existing outside of it? God existed in time when he came to earth in human form. God created time, therefore he can do whatever he wants with it. The difference is, he isn't bound inside of it like we are. We can't exist outside of time, God can. He knows what 1000 years mean, he created the revolution of the earth around the sun therefore he understands the concept of a human year. But he isn't held to human standards of time. To God himself, time is meaningless because it doesn't affect him directly ( except when he became human), but he does interact and relate to it indirectly by his own choosing.

I wasn't trying to make it complicated, I was simply saying that since a god wouldn't be bound by time a simple minded comparison of time like that is pointless and stupid.

phillip millar · 03-18-2003, 01:58 PM

Re: Comments by 'Magus55';
I notice that many of the contibutions to the forums implicitly or otherwise postulate the question 'why ?' with specific reference to divine intervention.

Does man really want divine intervention?

I think not for the following reasons:

Divine intervention might require western (so called 'christian') governments to contribute a greater share of their gross domestic product to relief of the hardship of third world countries.

Divine intervention might require more parents to take more responsibilty for their children.

Divine intervention might require husbands to love their wives to the exclusion of all others.

Divine intervention might require more fathers to spend time with their children.

I could go on. It seems to me that the attitude of human nature has always been the same,

'Depart from us, we desire not the knowledge of your ways'

It is a luxury to dirty the nest and then blame somebody else.

Best Regards (and absolutely no offence intended)
Phillip Millar

Biff the unclean · 03-18-2003, 02:06 PM

And it would require Ulster to be again part of Ireland.

Mageth · 03-18-2003, 02:09 PM

Who said God couldn't exist within time while simultaneously existing outside of it?

Pick one or the other. Either god exists within time or he exists outside of time. He can't do both simultaneously, no more than he can simultaneously exist and not exist.

God existed in time when he came to earth in human form.

Then while here he could not simultaneously exist outside of time.

Further, explain how a being "outside of time" could jump into a temporal existence in a space-time universe. By definition, nothing could happen "outside of time" - there would be no moment in such a "timeless universe" when god could go from a timeless existence to a space-time existence.

God created time, therefore he can do whatever he wants with it.

A "timeless" entity could not create anything, as for it there would be no "moment" for it to create anything at.

The difference is, he isn't bound inside of it like we are.

If god's not bound by time, then he can't "exist" in time.

We can't exist outside of time, God can.

And all the time I thought "time would be no more" in heaven. Darn.

He knows what 1000 years mean, he created the revolution of the earth around the sun therefore he understands the concept of a human year. But he isn't held to human standards of time. To God himself, time is meaningless because it doesn't affect him directly ( except when he became human), but he does interact and relate to it indirectly by his own choosing.

Explain to me exactly how an entity in a timeless universe could interact and relate with a space-time universe. I think you have no concept of what "timeless"/being outside of time actually implies. There is no "moment" in a timeless universe in which a being in such a universe could interact and relate to a space-time universe. Nothing can happen in a timeless universe. Without time, whatever is, is; whatever isn't, isn't.

Ganymede · 03-18-2003, 02:13 PM

Compare:

Quote:

Originally posted by Debbie T
16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

With Luke 9-27:

Quote:

But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

That does not look like a reference to the resurection to me

Magus55 · 03-18-2003, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spaz
I wasn't trying to make it complicated, I was simply saying that since a god wouldn't be bound by time a simple minded comparison of time like that is pointless and stupid.

Not if the purpose is to give a relation for which to compare God to humans its not.

Magus55 · 03-18-2003, 02:32 PM

Mageth, you are using your concept of time to make arguments against God. There is no law that says God cannot exist inside and outside of time simultaenously. God is spiritual being. You are using your knowledge of the universe that YOU are bound to. God does not follow the same laws of physics we do. God is both outside time as well as inside. Time doesn't affect him unless he chooses to interact with it directly ( live on earth as a human).
God can see the past, present, and future at once. Yet he can also be within time when watching over humans. You can't debate this because you can't comprehend God's complete nature. He created the laws that govern time, therefore he can exist within it and without it. God doesn't need something to exist for him to work with it.

What do you think was there before God created our known universe? Nothing, nada, no matter, no time just HIM. He existed outside of it before the universe, and then he created time and the universe and existed outside of it as well as inside his own creation. When Adam and Eve were in the Garden, God walked through the Garden with them. Yet a few days earlier, time didn't exist.

Its a pointless argument, you can't confine God, the creator of time and space, to your boundaries and knowledge of that time and space. Time has no control over God unless he allows it to.

Biff the unclean · 03-18-2003, 02:45 PM

Entropic_Gnosis, if you are still reding this. I would report your fellow student to a guidance counsellor.
He sounds like the type of fellow whose neighbors would be saying "He was so quiet. He seemed nice, I didn't really know him. Nobody can believe that he did those terrible things." to the reporters.
This is a sick puppy, and these are warning signs. Tell somebody.

Mageth · 03-18-2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Magus55
Mageth, you are using your concept of time to make arguments against God.

And you're attempting to redefine "time" to make your arguments for god. So what?

There is no law that says God cannot exist inside and outside of time simultaenously.

Simple logic dictates it. Either god is inside of time or god is outside of time. It's absurd to think a being could be both simultaneously.

God is spiritual being.

Now, you're using your concept of "spiritual" to make arguments for god. If you don't accept my "concept" of time (which isn't mine, BTW), then why should I accept your concept of "spiritual"?

You are using your knowledge of the universe that YOU are bound to.

And what else am I supposed to use to determine reality? Superstition, like you?

God does not follow the same laws of physics we do. God is both outside time as well as inside. Time doesn't affect him unless he chooses to interact with it directly ( live on earth as a human).

More absurdities.

God can see the past, present, and future at once. Yet he can also be within time when watching over humans. You can't debate this because you can't comprehend God's complete nature.

Sure I can debate it. Your problem is that you fail to comprehend the meaning of "time" and "timeless".

He created the laws that govern time, therefore he can exist within it and without it. God doesn't need something to exist for him to work with it.

Huh? That makes no sense at all.

What do you think was there before God created our known universe?

You're forgetting, I don't think god created the universe.

Nothing, nada, no matter, no time just HIM. He existed outside of it before the universe, and then he created time and the universe and existed outside of it as well as inside his own creation.
When Adam and Eve were in the Garden, God walked through the Garden with them. Yet a few days earlier, time didn't exist.

Once again, if time didn't exist, and if god "existed" in a timeless existence, god couldn't have "created" anything, no matter how you define him. There would be no moment a "few days earlier" for god to have created anything.

Its a pointless argument, you can't confine God, the creator of time and space, to your boundaries and knowledge of that time and space. Time has no control over God unless he allows it to.

It's not pointless at all. It demonstrates the absurdity of a timeless god creating a space-time universe. Time has no control over god because god doesn't exist.

Entropic_Gnosis · 03-18-2003, 03:32 PM

Reguards to Biff: Yes i am keeping my eye on him actually, he hasnt DONE anything i can report him for, its just the way he talks . . .and frankly i suppose i could report for some kind of "discrimination" but it would not hold up. So for now i hold my own. And ther are several of us who keep an eye on this guy. Thankfully he is not reclusive so its easy to do

And on another note, i leave for a weekend and *boom* posts like mad, and thankyou Mageth for pointing out the falicy of Magus with

Quote:

And what else am I supposed to use to determine reality? Superstition, like you?

this is my real complaint with people like this, they dont seem to get the fact that they are asking us to accept things that are beyond comprehension, sure there is "faith" but even that has to come from somewhere, Magus would say god, i say the desire to have a god

Voltaire

Quote:

If god did not exist it would be necessary to invent him

Incedently magus, some reading for you (not something you would object to either i dont think) Boethius' consolation of philosophy

03-18-2003, 01:58 PM	#122
phillip millar Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 15	Depart from us Re: Comments by 'Magus55'; I notice that many of the contibutions to the forums implicitly or otherwise postulate the question 'why ?' with specific reference to divine intervention. Does man really want divine intervention? I think not for the following reasons: Divine intervention might require western (so called 'christian') governments to contribute a greater share of their gross domestic product to relief of the hardship of third world countries. Divine intervention might require more parents to take more responsibilty for their children. Divine intervention might require husbands to love their wives to the exclusion of all others. Divine intervention might require more fathers to spend time with their children. I could go on. It seems to me that the attitude of human nature has always been the same, 'Depart from us, we desire not the knowledge of your ways' It is a luxury to dirty the nest and then blame somebody else. Best Regards (and absolutely no offence intended) Phillip Millar

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03-18-2003, 02:06 PM	#123
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	And it would require Ulster to be again part of Ireland.

03-18-2003, 02:09 PM	#124
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Who said God couldn't exist within time while simultaneously existing outside of it? Pick one or the other. Either god exists within time or he exists outside of time. He can't do both simultaneously, no more than he can simultaneously exist and not exist. God existed in time when he came to earth in human form. Then while here he could not simultaneously exist outside of time. Further, explain how a being "outside of time" could jump into a temporal existence in a space-time universe. By definition, nothing could happen "outside of time" - there would be no moment in such a "timeless universe" when god could go from a timeless existence to a space-time existence. God created time, therefore he can do whatever he wants with it. A "timeless" entity could not create anything, as for it there would be no "moment" for it to create anything at. The difference is, he isn't bound inside of it like we are. If god's not bound by time, then he can't "exist" in time. We can't exist outside of time, God can. And all the time I thought "time would be no more" in heaven. Darn. He knows what 1000 years mean, he created the revolution of the earth around the sun therefore he understands the concept of a human year. But he isn't held to human standards of time. To God himself, time is meaningless because it doesn't affect him directly ( except when he became human), but he does interact and relate to it indirectly by his own choosing. Explain to me exactly how an entity in a timeless universe could interact and relate with a space-time universe. I think you have no concept of what "timeless"/being outside of time actually implies. There is no "moment" in a timeless universe in which a being in such a universe could interact and relate to a space-time universe. Nothing can happen in a timeless universe. Without time, whatever is, is; whatever isn't, isn't.

03-18-2003, 02:32 PM	#127
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Mageth, you are using your concept of time to make arguments against God. There is no law that says God cannot exist inside and outside of time simultaenously. God is spiritual being. You are using your knowledge of the universe that YOU are bound to. God does not follow the same laws of physics we do. God is both outside time as well as inside. Time doesn't affect him unless he chooses to interact with it directly ( live on earth as a human). God can see the past, present, and future at once. Yet he can also be within time when watching over humans. You can't debate this because you can't comprehend God's complete nature. He created the laws that govern time, therefore he can exist within it and without it. God doesn't need something to exist for him to work with it. What do you think was there before God created our known universe? Nothing, nada, no matter, no time just HIM. He existed outside of it before the universe, and then he created time and the universe and existed outside of it as well as inside his own creation. When Adam and Eve were in the Garden, God walked through the Garden with them. Yet a few days earlier, time didn't exist. Its a pointless argument, you can't confine God, the creator of time and space, to your boundaries and knowledge of that time and space. Time has no control over God unless he allows it to.

03-18-2003, 02:45 PM	#128
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Entropic_Gnosis, if you are still reding this. I would report your fellow student to a guidance counsellor. He sounds like the type of fellow whose neighbors would be saying "He was so quiet. He seemed nice, I didn't really know him. Nobody can believe that he did those terrible things." to the reporters. This is a sick puppy, and these are warning signs. Tell somebody.

03-18-2003, 02:53 PM	#129
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Originally posted by Magus55 Mageth, you are using your concept of time to make arguments against God. And you're attempting to redefine "time" to make your arguments for god. So what? There is no law that says God cannot exist inside and outside of time simultaenously. Simple logic dictates it. Either god is inside of time or god is outside of time. It's absurd to think a being could be both simultaneously. God is spiritual being. Now, you're using your concept of "spiritual" to make arguments for god. If you don't accept my "concept" of time (which isn't mine, BTW), then why should I accept your concept of "spiritual"? You are using your knowledge of the universe that YOU are bound to. And what else am I supposed to use to determine reality? Superstition, like you? God does not follow the same laws of physics we do. God is both outside time as well as inside. Time doesn't affect him unless he chooses to interact with it directly ( live on earth as a human). More absurdities. God can see the past, present, and future at once. Yet he can also be within time when watching over humans. You can't debate this because you can't comprehend God's complete nature. Sure I can debate it. Your problem is that you fail to comprehend the meaning of "time" and "timeless". He created the laws that govern time, therefore he can exist within it and without it. God doesn't need something to exist for him to work with it. Huh? That makes no sense at all. What do you think was there before God created our known universe? You're forgetting, I don't think god created the universe. Nothing, nada, no matter, no time just HIM. He existed outside of it before the universe, and then he created time and the universe and existed outside of it as well as inside his own creation. When Adam and Eve were in the Garden, God walked through the Garden with them. Yet a few days earlier, time didn't exist. Once again, if time didn't exist, and if god "existed" in a timeless existence, god couldn't have "created" anything, no matter how you define him. There would be no moment a "few days earlier" for god to have created anything. Its a pointless argument, you can't confine God, the creator of time and space, to your boundaries and knowledge of that time and space. Time has no control over God unless he allows it to. It's not pointless at all. It demonstrates the absurdity of a timeless god creating a space-time universe. Time has no control over god because god doesn't exist.

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