Vorkosigan

C'mon, this guy is some kind of troll, probably an atheist yanking everyone's chain.

Sojourner553

Interesting!

Why? Because in my teens that is EXACTLY the proof I used to argue that there was a God: ie I felt a spiritual tingliness -- a feeling of goodness that someone was with me.

That was before I started doing some analysis of the Bible and Christian history.

Unlike other atheists, I can tell you I was greatly saddened to find it all superstition. I became convinced after looking at all the evidence objectively.

I was "conditioned" from my religious Baptist background to believe that once I quit believing in God, that I would not feel spiritual anymore. I remember exactly the moment when I firmly decided the Bible was all superstition:

#1 I wondered if I would feel beauty anymore when I gazed up in the sky. I looked up at the sky -- it was a beautiful blue -- and I still felt the same rush of tingliness, warmness. Ah, that feeling was all within myself, I realized. (Which also explained why so many religious people did not seem to experience this -- ie it was independent of religion).

#2 I wondered if I would be wild and immoral (again because of my religios background teaching this). I then realized (for the first time) that it was "I" who wanted to be and act good -- this had nothing to do with a superficial reward. Indeed, I can report to you that being nonreligious has made me FAR more compassionate to others -- because now when I see a poor person -- I REALIZE THERE WILL NEVER BE A BETTER WORLD FOR THEM.

It also makes me sick to see conservative Christians willing to pollute and trash the planet because there claim there is no need to preserve it for future generations -- in their superstitious views God is going to destroy this beautiful world and build a new heaven.

So I'll take reality -- thank you VERY much!

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." -- Carl Sagan

And for the record: My warm and tingly spiritual feelings are, if anything, stronger than ever. I just aware now of its true source -- ME! "I" want to be a good person and help others. That's also why I am a Democrat today (although I was brought up as a conservative Republican)! I am told for my income level I am not "supposed" to be a Democrat -- ie I am only supposed to care about myself (for you see "God" will take care of the rest...)

Sojourner

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Frivolous

But i do grasp the universe as it really is

Sojourner553

How do you really know without checking it out first!?

Somewhere between 95-98% of people hold the same main religion as their parents.

Do you think the 9/11 terrorists grasped the reality of the universe? They were absolutely convinced theirs was a good deed and they would be waiting on -- was it 70 virgins in heaven for eternity...

Now I am NOT accusing you of being a terrorist! My point is if YOU wore born in their place, what would you do differently to discover the superstition in your childhood religion (now fundamentalist Islam)...

And have you taken the same steps to test your childhood belief system today?

Sojourner

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Frivolous

Because our primary peers are our parents. And our parents are our first source of knowledge.

Now i have to retreat into the argument that maybe they did grasp their reality properly because it was part of a greater plan.

If i was born in exactly the same situation as them, with exactly the same genes as them, i would have done exactly the same thing as them. Because there would be no reason i wouldn't have. Consider this statement closely if replying.

Wave Man

Whatever one may believe about Jesus from a theology type perspective, I do believe many non-christian historians accept that he existed as a historic person.

Apart from being mentioned in the gospels, which were written down while people were still alive from the time he is supposed to have lived, he is also mentioned in a work Annales, by Tacitus, around year 115.

It is also interesting to note that the Jewish polemic writings from the time, disclaiming his divinity, resurrection etc, doesn't dispute the claim that he existed. They do not even question that he did miracles, only by which power he did them. I do not mean that reference in the gospels, I'm talking about non-gospel writings.

Like I said, this is quite apart from the Gospels, written about him in a time in an organization led by people who were alive during his lifetime. And among whom many were killed for their faith. Regardless of what you think of his divinity, I do not believe that so many would have given up their lives for what they knew from their own experience to be a lie.

Uzzah

That has been the long standing default position. However with the likes of Doherty coming onto the scene, that is changing.



If I'm not mistaken, Tacitus mentions christians not jesus. A big difference. Even so you had Ignatius writing around 110 about a "historical jesus", which is the very first mention of Pilate and Mary. Kinda a long time to mention the mother of god, huh?



I challenge you to find any talmud writings on jesus that can be proven to have been written before 3rd century. (I don't have any notes or books in front of me, but I'm quite sure it was the 3rd century, feel free to correct me.)

Unsubstantiated Rhetoric.


Uzzah

lpetrich

Except that such credulity was rather general. Early Xian apologists seldom questioned the existence of pagan deities or the occurence of pagan miracle-working. They often believed that pagan deities were really wicked devils who could work miracles.

So does that mean that Zeus and Odin and so forth are real beings? That Apollonius of Tyana once raised a little girl from the dead, just like JC and Lazarus? That Roman Emperor Vespasian once cured some people with magical spit therapy, as JC was described as doing? Etc.

And as to those Rabbis, they believed that the virgin-birth story was invented to cover up JC's real paternity: a Roman soldier named Panthera.

Except that the oldest Gospel, most likely Mark, is dated at about 66-70 CE, over 30 years after JC had allegedly lived (his career was in the early 30's CE). Which means a serious gap.

Ah, yes, the Argument from Martyrdom. Let us not forget all those who have been willing to die for Islam, which promises its male followers lots of pretty ladies as their new wives in Paradise.

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

Sojourner553

I am not a proponent of determinism. It is like predicting the weather -- one cannot perfect predict the outcome because there is a random element however small that can accumulate into a chaotic factor throwing the whole system off. The analogy often given is how a the beat of a butterfly's wings can make the different whether a storm system becomes a tornado or not.

What this means is: there is a random element in life on WHOM one is exposed to and one's DECISION at this exact moment in time on how to respond.

I was born into a fundamentalist religion. However I was also exposed to science and rationality growing up. It was my CHOICE to apply reason first. This is why I am in the tiny 1-5% category of individuals who did switch from the religion of their parents.

There probably is a genetic component to this -- ie being rational and desiring truth above all dogma. When I was younger I questioned why Jesus would condemn to hell a person who lived on a remote island even though he had never heard of him. (My Baptist Sunday School teacher had insisted this was the correct interpretation).

When I found out Santa Claus was false, I rushed out and told my younger sister because I assumed she would want to know the truth like me. Instead she became angry and literally covered her ears up (an attitude one sees today in her in adulthood)...

Sojourner

PS. It's getting lonely out there on the Ark thread. You didn't like my last post to you or something??

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Answerer

Just curious, what are those Jewish polemic writings or non-gospel writings that you are talking about? Are any links to them?