s5o8

Did we have a choice to be created on this earth, yes or no? I think this question should be at the heart of any free will argument? If we did not have a choice how can anyone say that we now have a free will?

If we did have a choice why does nobody have any recollection of this decision and can we be held to this choice?

Nowhere357

No, at least not that I can remember.

But why should that define free will? Then what will we call the fact that we can try to make decisions based on the choices presented to our minds?

s5o8

Hi,

I don’t think I would say it defines free-will, but I think that if we do have free will like many theist claim then should the exercising of that freedom not have started with the choice to participate in this cosmic experiment in the first place! My reasoning might be wrong, but if I was going to judge someone based on a set of decisions I would want to know if the participant was willing to participate first! That is why I ask if it should not be central to the argument.

Vandrare

how could you be asked if you wish to exist if you dont yet exist??

Writer@Large

Isn't the standard theological stance that souls are eternal, and that they somehow "exist" in Heaven even before we were born? At least, those are the things I remember believing as a child. If so, a possible comeback is that we were all up in Heaven and we volunteered to be born, but we just don't remember it.

--W@L

Godot

So your inability to have chosen to come into existence prevents you from being able to exhibit free will?
Whether you had a choice in coming into this world is irrelevant; you are here. The breadth of the choices you make while here demonstrate the presence or absence of free will.

Writer@Large

Actually, it's incredibly relevant. Being here in this world has, if the Xian mythos is true, placed my immortal soul in danger of eternal damnation, a situation that I apparently could not avoid because the very act of being born burdens me with Original Sin. A baby five minutes out of the womb has committed no worldly sin, but if it died it still gets damned because it never accepted Jesus nor ever repented for Original Sin. [And if you want to pull out the old apologetic about Yahweh letting all the unbaptized babies into Heaven, or putting them in a Purgatorial waiting room, read this.]

If I *had* a choice, why would I put my soul at such risk? Unless you're claiming souls aren't permanent and eternal, in which case Yahweh created my soul for the express purpose of putting it at risk of Hellfire. In which case I question His sanity. And I question the amount of free will He truly gives me.

--W@L

Godot

W@L: when seen from that perspective, I stand corrected. (I also have no interest in performing apologetics as I do not believe in any supernatural ... well, anything.)

Would I be wrong in saying we can postulate a few things from here? Such as:
1. there is no free will
2. there is free will, but god is a complete bastard or is incompetent
3. the soul does not exist
4. by extension, I guess we can also shed some doubt as to the veracity of the xian mythos (not that it was particularly strong in any case).

Kip

Will.

Nowhere357

So "will" is the ability to make decisions from the choices we're aware of.

What then is "free will"? The ability to make decisions from the choices we're NOT aware of? How is that a helpful definition?

Merriam-Webster
Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Main Entry: 2will
Pronunciation: 'wil
Date: before 12th century
1 : DESIRE, WISH: as a : DISPOSITION, INCLINATION <where there's a will there's a way> b : APPETITE, PASSION c : CHOICE, DETERMINATION
2 a : something desired; especially : a choice or determination of one having authority or power b (1) archaic : REQUEST, COMMAND (2) [from the phrase our will is which introduces it] : the part of a summons expressing a royal command
3 : the act, process, or experience of willing : VOLITION
4 a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group <the will of the people>
5 : the power of control over one's own actions or emotions <a man of iron will>
6 : {legal - snip}
- at will : as one wishes : as or when it pleases or suits oneself


LOOKS TO ME like we're both right.