Spaz

:notworthy Well said Lobstrosity :notworthy

Tom Sawyer

The human mind is hardwired to see patterns in things. When we come across something that we don't understand, the tendency is to tyr and place it into existing patterns that we know in order to make sense of it. This helps us out by allowing us to do such things as recognize animals behind bushes when we can only see a small part of that animal. We extrapolate what we can see to what we already know - if there is a wagging tail behind a tree, we can put that tail into our image of an animal we have seen before and know we can eat it if we stick our spear into what that tail is connected to.

Similarily, we can see the principle of cause and effect. If we do something, something else happens - if we hit someone over the head with a club, he dies. If a bolt of lightning hits someone over the head and he dies, we assume that someone caused that to happen, since that is the pattern that we know. Primitive man had no concept of how lightning actually occurs, so he assumes that somebody sent it. He then asks that person not to hit him with lightning and leaves him a piece of meat from the deer he just killed so the guy will be more inclined to do so and when he is not hit with lightning, he assumes that person listened. Everyone will have different ideas of what the guy will need to not do bad things to them, so someone puts all the different things that are needed together to let everyone else know what they are. People who don't do those things potentially are putting the entie tribe at risk from this lightning-sender's wrath. Fast forward a few thousand years and you have organized religion. It wasn't originally intended to be something that people use to control others, it just kind of worked out that way.

Radorth

Easy.

"It's the theists fault."

Can you think of a single major social problem which isn't? In fact can you think of a major problem at II which isn't some theists' fault? We all have our little crutches.

Nah, I do so many wrong things he has to impute righteousness to me and accept faith in lieu of good works, and then he has to "will and work" the things that please him. Maybe you are talking about Muslims who get their own harem for killing innocent people.

No, only love can make one fearless. There is no way to avoid fear by "using your good luck charm properly." A Christian is fearless only when s/he knows that bad behavior will not separate him or her from the abiding love of God.

Well I'm sure that's true of some Christians. Others find a whole new world of dilemmas to think about, unlike atheists who decide "there is no God, therefore there is no sin." Neat, isn't it.

It would be but for verses which talk about purgatory.

Hitler will be saved for all I know. A thief was saved on his dying day by Jesus, so of course I have never once, ever told an atheist they will go to hell.

Guess I have none of the crutches you describe. Jesus pretty much knocks them out from under us. Read the Sermon on the Mount sometime and show me the crutches.

Rad

Lobstrosity

I hate to break it to you, but this is what I mean by the metaphore "using your good luck charm properly." Thank you for supporting my claim that the Christian faith allows you to be fearless. Even if it is true, it is still a crutch. It is still something that reduces the psychological strain on the individual. I happen to take the view that this reduced strain is enough to make people believe even though it's not true, but that's just my opinion.

Have any of your loved ones died and if so, where are they now? Do you answer this question with a flat, unqualified "I have no idea" or would you rather answer with a somewhat strenous "they're in Heaven watching over me"? If it's the latter, then that would be a crutch right there. You can't deny the psychological boost such a notion provides. Nearly every Christian I've ever met has spoken fondly of how their loved ones watch over them from above. They have no doubt as to where said loved ones are. As such, they never have to deal with the true sense of "loss" they would feel were they to not believe in Heaven.

Radorth

Your "metaphor" is so sweeping as to be almost meaningless. I know many many Christians, taught by legalists, who walk in fear. While some Christians do fit your case, they all do not. And those who are truly fearless are rather rare and if you ask a Catholic if they are going to heaven, they invariable say "I hope so." (Missing mass for some is enough cause to fear). My point is that we are all much alike and all have crutches of one type or another. Moreover the fact that some find Christianity a crutch cannot be construed to mean it is not so.

I don't deny it is a boost, although I disagree with what you are implying- that they all believe what is not true because they seek a crutch. You must first prove it isn't so before you can assert what their motives are.

Stephen T-B

(Bit late this, but)
Lobstrosity’s and Tom Sawyer’s erudite expositions omitted one significant aspect of religious beliefs - especially the Abrahamic ones: I refer to the way they give us and our kind the recognition which the world doesn’t.
Human’s are slow and feeble compared with most other animals of comparable size, but that doesn’t matter because we are like God. he made us in his image, and you can’t get better than that. He also made everything just for us.
That’s pretty damn good, but things are even better because while, as a human being, we might be extremely average and not really noticeable at all, we are not insignificant to god. He loves ME! His only son died for ME!
This is wonderful, ego-boosting stuff, and the atheists have the gall to say it’s all rubbish - God damn their souls.

-

Starboy

PITW, when you think about, what greater control freak could there be than god. What greater attraction could you have for toadies and sycophants? And wouldn't such people, by reason of their personality, automatically start to "lord" it over others? It does make you wonder, did religion create the subservient man or does it just bring out the subservience that exists to some extent in all of us?

Starboy

Lobstrosity

That's an incredibly good point. I left out perhaps the most attractive feature of Christianity: it puts man on a pedestal. Ironically (or perhaps not) this is one of the things that most seriously gives me reason to doubt its validity. History has demonstrated time and time again that egocentric theories are nearly always wrong. Humans like to think they are special--we're just egotistical by nature. Therefore, we desperately seek some sort of external validation for this notion that we are special, and by the very nature of the activity, we do not do this with an open, objective mind.

For example, initially, we were at the center of the universe. Everything revolved around us. And why not? God made the whole universe for us, so by all rights we must be at the center of everything. The church went so far as to put Galileo under house-arrest for daring to say that objective evidence did not support this view. So then it became that our solar system was the center of the universe...until we discovered that we're just one solar system out of billions located in some unremarkable segment of just one of billions of galaxies. Ok, but God still made the universe for us and he made us in his image, so we have that going for us. We can still be confident that we are his precious chosen ones, and this makes us remarkably special.

Of course, along comes the theory of evolution, arising from growing stacks of objective evidence, which all of a sudden strikes down the notion that God directly created us. Out the window goes the idea that we were specifically made in his image. Serious doubt is cast upon the idea that we are really God's chosen creatures. Is it any surprise that the church feverishly rises against this as if it's a threat from Satan himself (in exactly the same way the church opposed the notion that we were not the center of the universe)? The church clearly isn't interested in understanding what actually in the aeons since the universe formed; it obviously is solely concerned with saving our "specialness." This specialness is one major crutch the church cannot afford to lose, for this is a huge psychological draw.

There are even more points I could make about how the existence of God givs lives psychological meaning and a sense of direction that would otherwise be lacking, but I think I've said more than enough for now.

Vespertine

Yes, there is no sin. But how many atheists parade around, doing whatever they want because there is no sin? You may perceive some of our actions that way, but that is only through strong biases. We're still responsible for our actions because they do effect others. We have real reasons to act the way we do instead of a fear of god's wrath. Do you actually care about other humans because of their rights and not because Jesus/god told you to? (Though we all know that they even promote violence)

Infidelettante

I would guess that early man found some way of dealing with what must have been [and still is] a frightening world. I think these methods were appropriate and logical given their times and lack of other ways to explain the world. I do not think we could call these early religious coping skills a crutch. I see it as a testament to human imagination and adaptability.

Where the crutch developes is after the agricultural revolution allows the development of full time religious priesthoods which must prey upon the people to support themselves. The crutch is real, only it supports the wrong body, the body of the church which must impoverish its' followers to maintain its' own well being. It is in the priests interest to keep the people addicted to God else how would he survive. So the crutch supports not the deluded serf but rather the gilded Pope.

JT[