Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mikester · 03-03-2003, 06:55 PM

do you think religion is just a psychological crutch that has been used for thousands of years to put the minds of the masses at ease?

did it start off as just a clever tactic to keep the poor from taking advantage of their massive numbers and overthrowing the installed authority?

PopeInTheWoods · 03-03-2003, 06:59 PM

No, I think many religions started as ways to explain why the world is how it is. The control thing probably didn't start for a week or two after that.

EspressoSnail · 03-03-2003, 06:59 PM

Or perhaps some people cannot live thinking that they are not a big or important individual in the universe and must create some story to make themselves feel better?

mikester · 03-03-2003, 07:03 PM

i agree with the way that it probably meant to explain what we couldn't at the time.

i mean, it's a lot easier to say 'its god's will' that figure it out scientifically.

it also seems to me that religion puts people at much more ease, since they feel safer and happier thinking that a powerful being protects, and looks over them.

Spaz · 03-03-2003, 07:09 PM

Most things start out innocently. I think that at first it was just to explain the unexplainable and give people some kind of purpose to their lives and hardships. Eventually someone exploited the people's beliefs and used religion to control them.

philechat · 03-03-2003, 07:17 PM

I do think religion is the active shaper of most civilizations. To couple human laws with divine order makes people more active in working toward the collective (cultural) ideal. To say it is only a crutch, a delusion, or a way to explain the big questions is probably too simplisitic, given that even in scientifically advanced societies religions/superstitions are still prevalent.

I would imagine the dreams or ideas of the prophets/shamans to become religious thoughts once interpreted. They may be wildly speculative in their "visions", due to the lack of systematic methodology. The ideas that are useful then become incoperated into the religious order which then enforces the ideas into dogmas. Combined with secular laws, it makes a group of people more organized, more unified in their cultural identity, and less erratic or rebellious. These traits are selected for in warfare and in perservation of cultural traditions, leaving most cultures surviving to be religious.

copernicus · 03-03-2003, 09:31 PM

My take on it is similar to Pope in the Woods' view. It all hinges on how we understand and learn new things about the world. Our thought is originally grounded in direct bodily perceptions, and we understand new experiences by relating them to known experiences. That is, the human mind depends on analogy and metaphor (not logical decduction) to understand the nature of reality. We build mental models, and we constantly test them for explanatory power. Over a lifetime, we build more and more complex models, but everything is grounded in direct experience. (This philosophical position is sometimes called experientialism.)

Religion grows directly out of our childhood experience. We recognize the authority of adults, especially parents, from the very beginning of our lives, and we learn morality by obeying adult rules. Our "adult" gods are the authorities that replace our parents. Gods clearly have human attributes, and they rule over our adult lives in precisely the same way that parents and guardians ruled over our childhood lives.

Where, then, does atheism come from? If religion derives from human experience, then how can we break out of it? As I said before, we build models, and we test them. Religion has failed the test of time. Gods just don't do a very good job of explaining how the universe works. The scientific method and the rule of law have come to replace the the old social gods. At least, they have for some of us. Most people are still very much attached to their anthropomorphic gods, and I would not expect that to change radically in our lifetimes. The evolution of civilization is a slow process when measured against human lifetimes.

Radorth · 03-03-2003, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Most things start out innocently. I think that at first it was just to explain the unexplainable and give people some kind of purpose to their lives and hardships. Eventually someone exploited the people's beliefs and used religion to control them.

I agree with this generally, but the theory is stretched much to far. It is probably the basis for the ludicrous arguments of Jesus-mythers, calling the first Christians deluded, lying, manipulative, dependent on midrash, etc. Al these accusations are necessary for the theory to hold up.

Rad

"He whom you ignorantly worship, him I declare to you..."

Lobstrosity · 03-04-2003, 05:00 AM

Religion and superstition go hand in hand. Why is it some people assume that knocking on wood will prevent a "jynx" or having a rabbit's foot will bring them good luck? This is a psychological crutch that causes people to feel they have power over the random things that will befall them. The world is a scary place. Any assortment of horrible things can happen to you or a loved one at any moment. Many people would give anything to achieve some sense of control over these unknown horrors. Someone (either a fellow dupe or a conman) then tells them that substance X keeps bad things away. They get substance X and, in their desire to believe, experience a placebo effect. They think they have good luck now, so they tend to mentally focus on the good things that happen to them. All of these are now due to substance X. The normal bad things tend to be ignored or attributed to the fact that substance X wasn't being used right at the time...perhaps it wasn't facing true north just then. It's amazing how easy it is for a person to form superstitions. The more your occupation deals with to random fluctuations in success, the more superstitious you are (with atheletes being near the top of the list). Gamblers are also incredibly superstitious, latching onto anything they think might give them an edge over the randomness, no matter how unreasonable it might actually sound. It seems it's just human nature to subconsciously seek some sort of mental crutch--something that will provide us with a sense of control. Religion is the prime example of this. Christianity, specifically, is the ultimate superstition.

You've got your awesome good luck charm: God. Now this god, let me tell you about him. First off, he's all powerful, so if you get on his good side...well, let's just say you've got it made. Secondly, he's perfectly good, so you don't have to worry about his being mean to you. That dude will just love you to pieces if you do the right things. So, if you use your good luck charm properly, there's nothing to fear. How many times will a Christian tell you that they fear nothing because they are in the hands of God? That's exactly the psychological crutch I'm talking about here. You gain freedom from your fears because suddenly you understand everything about the world and you can control everything by following only a few small rules.

Of course, then how do you explain the bad things that still happen? Well, that's easy, you weren't following the rules right. You commited a sin and that's why God let something bad happen. Or even better, someone else wasn't following the rules right (why accept the blame when you can shift it to others). Someone else commited a sin and such sinning prevents God from providing you with your perfect paradise. Or lastly, if you really need an out, invent something to explain the evil: Satan. Now Satan runs around causing trouble, but God could kick his ass if he wanted to, so you're generally safe so long as you stay really good friends with God.

So, let's take a closer look at what our good luck charm does for us:

1) You get the answers to all the really tough questions. Anything complicated is simply now God's will, but you trust God and no one on earth could understand the detailed intricacies of God's will (you know, God works in mysterious ways and has an intelligence we humans could never fathom), so you now know as much as any human could possibly ever know. Wow, you can just shut your brain off now and be content that there's nothing left to wonder about. There are no more mysterious boogiemen to worry about...you're perfectly safe. And the best part? You get all these answers right off the bat, free of charge, with no work required. There's none of that difficult "thinking" involved!

2) You get an all-powerful, perfectly-good protector on your side. You follow his rules and he'll look out for you. He'll provide for you. You need ___(insert anything here)___? Don't worry, God will provide. Sit back, relax, take life as it comes and just trust in God. Your child is sick? That's ok, if you pray to God right he'll get healed. Boy, it's nice not having to worry about anything, isn't it?

3) You've got a back-up plan. Ok, so what happens if something bad does happen? We see examples of this all the time. What if your sick child actually dies? Well, clearly God had some reason why he wanted my child with him, and I don't have to worry about what that reason is because I can never fathom the true, detailed intentions of God, so I'll just trust that it was for the best. I'm not worried about it, though, because my child is in Heaven. Now let me tell you about this place! Heaven is just awesome. It is perfect bliss. You thought Santa was good? Wait until you hear about Heaven. Heaven is like Disneyland on crack...you've just got to see it to believe it! So, should God's protection ever fail you or your loved ones, you get to go someplace that's more amazing than you can fathom. In fact, it's so amazing God had to actually ban killing yourself so that you could get there faster! In the end, there is no reason to fear death and there is no reason to truly mourn your loved ones. Death isn't the end and it isn't some great unknown. It's the start of something you understand perfectly well; it's the start of something wonderful that you can share will all your loved ones. Isn't that just grand?

4) You get your revenge. What about all the people who don't buy into your perfect little scenario? Those people are troubling because their disbelief begins to cast a slim shadow of doubt over the truth of your beliefs. If what you believe is the truth, why don't they believe it? Uh-oh, I don't like this...make them stop saying scary things about my not actually knowing everything. Well, your wish is granted--you know what's going to happen to these horrible liars. You can even threaten them with this knowledge to make them shut up! You know that they will suffer the most excruciating torture imaginable for all eternity. Haha, that will teach them to rain on my parade! Oh, but it gets even better. Let's say your child was murdered. You don't like the thought of the murderer sharing your dream vacation to Heaven, but guess what, you don't realistically have to worry about that! You can be confident that he's going to spend eternity tormented in Hell while you and your loved ones experience the ultimate joy of Heaven. You will get your revenge on those who have wronged you in death. Everything's all taken care of; you don't have to worry about a thing.

Lobstrosity · 03-04-2003, 05:04 AM

oops, double post

03-03-2003, 06:55 PM	#1
mikester Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 813	is religion just a crutch? do you think religion is just a psychological crutch that has been used for thousands of years to put the minds of the masses at ease? did it start off as just a clever tactic to keep the poor from taking advantage of their massive numbers and overthrowing the installed authority?

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03-03-2003, 06:59 PM	#2
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	No, I think many religions started as ways to explain why the world is how it is. The control thing probably didn't start for a week or two after that.

03-03-2003, 06:59 PM	#3
EspressoSnail Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 207	Or perhaps some people cannot live thinking that they are not a big or important individual in the universe and must create some story to make themselves feel better?

03-03-2003, 07:03 PM	#4
mikester Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 813	i agree with the way that it probably meant to explain what we couldn't at the time. i mean, it's a lot easier to say 'its god's will' that figure it out scientifically. it also seems to me that religion puts people at much more ease, since they feel safer and happier thinking that a powerful being protects, and looks over them.

03-03-2003, 07:09 PM	#5
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	Most things start out innocently. I think that at first it was just to explain the unexplainable and give people some kind of purpose to their lives and hardships. Eventually someone exploited the people's beliefs and used religion to control them.

03-03-2003, 07:17 PM	#6
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	I do think religion is the active shaper of most civilizations. To couple human laws with divine order makes people more active in working toward the collective (cultural) ideal. To say it is only a crutch, a delusion, or a way to explain the big questions is probably too simplisitic, given that even in scientifically advanced societies religions/superstitions are still prevalent. I would imagine the dreams or ideas of the prophets/shamans to become religious thoughts once interpreted. They may be wildly speculative in their "visions", due to the lack of systematic methodology. The ideas that are useful then become incoperated into the religious order which then enforces the ideas into dogmas. Combined with secular laws, it makes a group of people more organized, more unified in their cultural identity, and less erratic or rebellious. These traits are selected for in warfare and in perservation of cultural traditions, leaving most cultures surviving to be religious.

03-03-2003, 09:31 PM	#7
copernicus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 1,531	My take on it is similar to Pope in the Woods' view. It all hinges on how we understand and learn new things about the world. Our thought is originally grounded in direct bodily perceptions, and we understand new experiences by relating them to known experiences. That is, the human mind depends on analogy and metaphor (not logical decduction) to understand the nature of reality. We build mental models, and we constantly test them for explanatory power. Over a lifetime, we build more and more complex models, but everything is grounded in direct experience. (This philosophical position is sometimes called experientialism.) Religion grows directly out of our childhood experience. We recognize the authority of adults, especially parents, from the very beginning of our lives, and we learn morality by obeying adult rules. Our "adult" gods are the authorities that replace our parents. Gods clearly have human attributes, and they rule over our adult lives in precisely the same way that parents and guardians ruled over our childhood lives. Where, then, does atheism come from? If religion derives from human experience, then how can we break out of it? As I said before, we build models, and we test them. Religion has failed the test of time. Gods just don't do a very good job of explaining how the universe works. The scientific method and the rule of law have come to replace the the old social gods. At least, they have for some of us. Most people are still very much attached to their anthropomorphic gods, and I would not expect that to change radically in our lifetimes. The evolution of civilization is a slow process when measured against human lifetimes.

03-04-2003, 05:00 AM	#9
Lobstrosity Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 719	Religion and superstition go hand in hand. Why is it some people assume that knocking on wood will prevent a "jynx" or having a rabbit's foot will bring them good luck? This is a psychological crutch that causes people to feel they have power over the random things that will befall them. The world is a scary place. Any assortment of horrible things can happen to you or a loved one at any moment. Many people would give anything to achieve some sense of control over these unknown horrors. Someone (either a fellow dupe or a conman) then tells them that substance X keeps bad things away. They get substance X and, in their desire to believe, experience a placebo effect. They think they have good luck now, so they tend to mentally focus on the good things that happen to them. All of these are now due to substance X. The normal bad things tend to be ignored or attributed to the fact that substance X wasn't being used right at the time...perhaps it wasn't facing true north just then. It's amazing how easy it is for a person to form superstitions. The more your occupation deals with to random fluctuations in success, the more superstitious you are (with atheletes being near the top of the list). Gamblers are also incredibly superstitious, latching onto anything they think might give them an edge over the randomness, no matter how unreasonable it might actually sound. It seems it's just human nature to subconsciously seek some sort of mental crutch--something that will provide us with a sense of control. Religion is the prime example of this. Christianity, specifically, is the ultimate superstition. You've got your awesome good luck charm: God. Now this god, let me tell you about him. First off, he's all powerful, so if you get on his good side...well, let's just say you've got it made. Secondly, he's perfectly good, so you don't have to worry about his being mean to you. That dude will just love you to pieces if you do the right things. So, if you use your good luck charm properly, there's nothing to fear. How many times will a Christian tell you that they fear nothing because they are in the hands of God? That's exactly the psychological crutch I'm talking about here. You gain freedom from your fears because suddenly you understand everything about the world and you can control everything by following only a few small rules. Of course, then how do you explain the bad things that still happen? Well, that's easy, you weren't following the rules right. You commited a sin and that's why God let something bad happen. Or even better, someone else wasn't following the rules right (why accept the blame when you can shift it to others). Someone else commited a sin and such sinning prevents God from providing you with your perfect paradise. Or lastly, if you really need an out, invent something to explain the evil: Satan. Now Satan runs around causing trouble, but God could kick his ass if he wanted to, so you're generally safe so long as you stay really good friends with God. So, let's take a closer look at what our good luck charm does for us: 1) You get the answers to all the really tough questions. Anything complicated is simply now God's will, but you trust God and no one on earth could understand the detailed intricacies of God's will (you know, God works in mysterious ways and has an intelligence we humans could never fathom), so you now know as much as any human could possibly ever know. Wow, you can just shut your brain off now and be content that there's nothing left to wonder about. There are no more mysterious boogiemen to worry about...you're perfectly safe. And the best part? You get all these answers right off the bat, free of charge, with no work required. There's none of that difficult "thinking" involved! 2) You get an all-powerful, perfectly-good protector on your side. You follow his rules and he'll look out for you. He'll provide for you. You need ___(insert anything here)___? Don't worry, God will provide. Sit back, relax, take life as it comes and just trust in God. Your child is sick? That's ok, if you pray to God right he'll get healed. Boy, it's nice not having to worry about anything, isn't it? 3) You've got a back-up plan. Ok, so what happens if something bad does happen? We see examples of this all the time. What if your sick child actually dies? Well, clearly God had some reason why he wanted my child with him, and I don't have to worry about what that reason is because I can never fathom the true, detailed intentions of God, so I'll just trust that it was for the best. I'm not worried about it, though, because my child is in Heaven. Now let me tell you about this place! Heaven is just awesome. It is perfect bliss. You thought Santa was good? Wait until you hear about Heaven. Heaven is like Disneyland on crack...you've just got to see it to believe it! So, should God's protection ever fail you or your loved ones, you get to go someplace that's more amazing than you can fathom. In fact, it's so amazing God had to actually ban killing yourself so that you could get there faster! In the end, there is no reason to fear death and there is no reason to truly mourn your loved ones. Death isn't the end and it isn't some great unknown. It's the start of something you understand perfectly well; it's the start of something wonderful that you can share will all your loved ones. Isn't that just grand? 4) You get your revenge. What about all the people who don't buy into your perfect little scenario? Those people are troubling because their disbelief begins to cast a slim shadow of doubt over the truth of your beliefs. If what you believe is the truth, why don't they believe it? Uh-oh, I don't like this...make them stop saying scary things about my not actually knowing everything. Well, your wish is granted--you know what's going to happen to these horrible liars. You can even threaten them with this knowledge to make them shut up! You know that they will suffer the most excruciating torture imaginable for all eternity. Haha, that will teach them to rain on my parade! Oh, but it gets even better. Let's say your child was murdered. You don't like the thought of the murderer sharing your dream vacation to Heaven, but guess what, you don't realistically have to worry about that! You can be confident that he's going to spend eternity tormented in Hell while you and your loved ones experience the ultimate joy of Heaven. You will get your revenge on those who have wronged you in death. Everything's all taken care of; you don't have to worry about a thing.

03-04-2003, 05:04 AM	#10
Lobstrosity Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 719	oops, double post

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