Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clarice O'C · 10-28-2002, 05:37 AM

Hello,

Neville Lindsay just dropped a bomb

at JesusMysteries that *seems* to prove Jesus' existence unless I'm reading the evidence incorrectly.

Our archive is now open to the public.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries

Best,
Clarice

MortalWombat · 10-28-2002, 06:07 AM

Note that this link in Neville's post contained the following quote:

Quote:

Both archaeologists found evidence clearly dating the two catacombs to the first century AD, with the later finding coins minted by Governor Varius Gratus at the turn of the millenium (up to 15/16 AD).

Does this mean that there were Christians before Jesus?

godfry n. glad · 10-28-2002, 06:29 AM

Nope. It is evidence that the tomb was not closed _before_ that time.

godfry n. glad

MortalWombat · 10-28-2002, 06:31 AM

OK, wait a minute. On this website it lists the prefects of Judea, and doesn't mention a Varius Gratus, but it does list a Valerius Gratus, who ruled right before Pilate, from 15-26. Is this the same guy, and if so, what other info are these websites getting wrong if they think that he ruled up to 15 or 16?

MortalWombat · 10-28-2002, 06:37 AM

If you type "varius gratus" in quotes in google's search engine, you come up with a handful of sites, all apologetic Christian ones. They all seem to be getting their info from the same source. If you type "valerius gratus", you get historical websites.

Amen-Moses · 10-28-2002, 06:52 AM

How does any of this prove that the Jesus of the gospel actually existed?

I don't think any mythicist claims there were NO Jesus' at all in 1st century Jerusalem.

Amen-Moses

MortalWombat · 10-28-2002, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amen-Moses

How does any of this prove that the Jesus of the gospel actually existed?

I don't think any mythicist claims there were NO Jesus' at all in 1st century Jerusalem.

Amen-Moses

The links provided in the JesusMysteries group by Neville seem to indicate that there were Christians in the early to mid 1st century. I don't think any mythicist disputes this either. Paul himself writing in the 50s in Romans, chapter 15 indicates that the church had been in Rome "many years."

Geoff Hudson · 10-28-2002, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarice O'C:

Hello,

Neville Lindsay just dropped a bomb

at JesusMysteries that *seems* to prove Jesus' existence unless I'm reading the evidence incorrectly.

Our archive is now open to the public.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries

Best,
Clarice

Freke and Gandy were wrong from the start. They
ignored Judaism.

The "relics" are yet another unsupported spoof that surprisingly we have just heard about. Perhaps Neville will be be selling indulgencies for his relics.

Geoff

Clarice O'C · 10-28-2002, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Hudson

:

Freke and Gandy were wrong from the start. They
ignored Judaism.

The "relics" are yet another unsupported spoof that surprisingly we have just heard about. Perhaps Neville will be be selling indulgencies for his relics.

Geoff

Neville isn't necessarily an HJer. He was just posting the links, perhaps tongue-in-cheek.

Best,
Clarice

MortalWombat · 10-28-2002, 10:28 AM

Here is a reply to those websites posted on JesusMysteries by kaolson101:

Quote:

...These web pages contain gross misrepresentations of Eleazar L. Sukenik's work on a tomb he excavated near Talpioth in September 1945. Sukenik did not say that the site contained the entire dictionary of NT names in his report published in AJA 1947, and I suspect he never said it at all. He published only five inscriptions from the excavation: Simeon Barsaba; Miriam, daughter of Simeon; Mattathias, and two containing the name "Jesus."

As to the describes two inscriptions with the name Jesus, I can't render the images precisely here, but one is IHCOUCIOU* (using C for the lunate sigma and * for the unidentifiable final symbol) and the other IHCOUCALWQ. Sukenik translated these as "Jesus, woe!" and "Jesus Aloe" (i.e., the plant, mentioned in Ps 45.8), which he interpreted as another expression of mourning. Kane, whose work I have not been able to see first hand, thinks Sukenik missed the second line of the first inscription, which he reads as "Jesus (son of) Judah" and interprets the ALWQ in the second as a proper name. Kane''s readings are accepted by Finnegan (pp. 364-365) and Taylor (pp. 5-9). In any event, neither Sukenik nor any other scholar I'm aware of who has published on the issue read either of these inscriptions as "Jesus is the Lord" and I would be interested to see the philological justification for that reading. Again, I suspect there is none.

Taylor cites Smith as establishing that the purpose of the crosses scratched on the ossuaries was to show indicate how to place the lid correctly (p. 9).

Sukenik dates the tomb as follows:
--A few words remain to be said with regard to the date of the tomb. Although it is theoretically possible that some of the Jewish tombs around Jerusalem may be dated as late as the foundation of Aelia Capitolina, the bulk of the tombs found at Jerusalem belong to the period before its destruction by the Romans in A.D. 70. The pottery in this tomb is typical of the late Hellenistic and early Roman periods. Similar types occur in practically all the tombs containing ossuaries discovered at Jerusalem. With the exception of the lamp decorated with the line pattern, which is still earlier, all the others are of a of the type with spatulated nozzles called "Herodian." No later types were found in the tomb. The character of the Greek letters (especially the shape of the H) points to a date not later than the first century A.D. To this should be added the evidence of the coin of Agrippa I which dates from A.D. 42/3.

My general impression is that the tomb contains nothing later than the first half of the first century A.D. The tomb was apparently in use from the first century B.C. until the middle of the first century A.D. All our evidence indicates that we have in this tomb the earliest records of Christianity in existence. It may also have a bearing on the historicity of Jesus and the crucifixion.-- (p. 365).
*****

The coin from A.D. 42/43 shows that the locus could not have been sealed earlier than that date, not that it was sealed then. In fact, Sukenik believes the tomb had been had disturbed prior to its excavation (p. 354), probably by grave robbers (p. 362). The other evidence is as consistent with a late first century date as with an early one, and an early second century date is by no means excluded.

Finally, Taylor's book shows that the whole theory that Claremont-Ganneau, Bagatti, and Sukenik found evidence of a specifically Jewish-Christian, as opposed to Jewish, presence in their excavations is at the very least widely and strongly contested.

Best Wishes,
Ken
kaolson@m...

Sources:
Finnegan, Jack, _The Archaeology of the New Testament: the Life of Jesus and the Beginning of the Early Church_ (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1992).

Kane, J. P., "By No Means 'The Earliest Record of Christianity''- with an Emended Reading of the Talpioth Inscription IHSOUJ IOU", _Palestine Excavation Quarterly_, 103 (1971) 103-108.

Smith, R. H., "The Cross Marks on Jewish Ossuaries," _Palestine Excavation Quarterly_ 106 (1971) 53-66.

Sukenik, E. L., "The Earliest Records of Christianity,"_American
Journal of Archaeology_ 51 (1947) 351-365.

Taylor, Joan E., _Christians and the Holy Places: the Myth of Jewish-Christian Origins_ (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1993).

Edited to add: Hey this was my 666th post!

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]</p>

10-28-2002, 05:37 AM	#1
Clarice O'C Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hollywood, FL Posts: 408	Is the JesusMysteries Forum Over? Hello, Neville Lindsay just dropped a bomb at JesusMysteries that seems to prove Jesus' existence unless I'm reading the evidence incorrectly. Our archive is now open to the public. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries Best, Clarice

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10-28-2002, 06:29 AM	#3
godfry n. glad Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, oregon, usa Posts: 1,190	Nope. It is evidence that the tomb was not closed _before_ that time. godfry n. glad

10-28-2002, 06:31 AM	#4
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	OK, wait a minute. On this website it lists the prefects of Judea, and doesn't mention a Varius Gratus, but it does list a Valerius Gratus, who ruled right before Pilate, from 15-26. Is this the same guy, and if so, what other info are these websites getting wrong if they think that he ruled up to 15 or 16?

10-28-2002, 06:37 AM	#5
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	If you type "varius gratus" in quotes in google's search engine, you come up with a handful of sites, all apologetic Christian ones. They all seem to be getting their info from the same source. If you type "valerius gratus", you get historical websites.

10-28-2002, 06:52 AM	#6
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	How does any of this prove that the Jesus of the gospel actually existed? I don't think any mythicist claims there were NO Jesus' at all in 1st century Jerusalem. Amen-Moses

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