Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Starboy · 08-31-2002, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:

That's a two-way street.

Ok agapeo,

What confuses faith with proof and faith with "truth"?

What teaches love thy neighbor and yet is at war with every religion on the planet?

What cannot differentiate between the mystical and the real?

What doesn't respect the law of Caesar, which is separation of church and state?

What religion is so arrogant that it doesn't see the aggression in proselytizing every human on the planet?

What religion is so weak in its own believes that for the last five hundred years has been at war with science?

What religion has a lock on the government and most of the people of the land and yet will not accept that what it offers is useless for this time and place?

What religion teaches dominion of man over all of creation as we destroy and plunder our planet, making it unfit for our children and ourselves?

agapeo, this is the tip of the iceberg. Christianity is not the religion for our time it is well past its prime. It is time for it to go away, along with all the aggressive religions of the world that will not allow us to live in peace on the planet.

Starboy

agapeo · 08-31-2002, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonduca:


both, I think. Otherwise what would be the point? Sitting around on some throne waiting to be approached is a sucky excuse for communication.

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]

I understand your point. It is awful tempting to want to discuss issues with your children that are important to you. In fact with younger children it's an obligation IMO but . . . I was thinking more along the lines of what if your child (and we're talking about those above 15 I think) doesn't wish to discuss the issue with you? Should you barge into a place that is their domain uninvited?

As far as your throne analogy goes -- I don't consider that it's a case of one sitting on their throne awaiting the approach of their children but rather respecting them enough not to try to force yourself upon them. Now that I think sucks.

HelenM · 08-31-2002, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:
I understand your point. It is awful tempting to want to discuss issues with your children that are important to you. In fact with younger children it's an obligation IMO but . . . I was thinking more along the lines of what if your child (and we're talking about those above 15 I think) doesn't wish to discuss the issue with you? Should you barge into a place that is their domain uninvited?

I think that was what I was trying to say, agapeo

I'd say similar reasoning applies to whether one raises a subject (relating to some ongoing sensitive issue) with a spouse...

Although maybe with a spouse one has more reason to expect certain topics to be discussable; after all there is the marriage commitment which commits us to a certain amount of cooperation/working together/living together etc.

I don't know; my children 7 and 9 so I have yet to face the teenage years

love
Helen

agapeo · 08-31-2002, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Edited to add: I'm thinking of something ongoing which is a sensitive issue, rather than some new issue. If it's new and/or has never never been discussed I hope I'd dare raise it. But once it's been discussed then I could envisage a situation where I'd like to say more but I know that if I did, it would be counter-productive.

I agree with you Helen. Assuming that the issue has been raised and you (as a parent) sensed that it wasn't what your child wished to speak of for the time being I think to push the issue would be counter-productive. What is more productive is to try to be understanding, supportive and loving. To be there for them. L

agapeo · 08-31-2002, 07:03 AM

Starboy

I think perhaps the issue of the rationale of Christianity/Atheism is a subject of discussion in another topic. On this one I prefer (if I continue with the discussion) to focus on the topic that Helen brought up.

HelenM · 08-31-2002, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:
 What is more productive is to try to be understanding, supportive and loving. To be there for them. L

Indeed

love
Helen

bonduca · 08-31-2002, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:

I understand your point. It is awful tempting to want to discuss issues with your children that are important to you. In fact with younger children it's an obligation IMO but . . . I was thinking more along the lines of what if your child (and we're talking about those above 15 I think) doesn't wish to discuss the issue with you? Should you barge into a place that is their domain uninvited?

As far as your throne analogy goes -- I don't consider that it's a case of one sitting on their throne awaiting the approach of their children but rather respecting them enough not to try to force yourself upon them. Now that I think sucks.

It is not forcing myself upon anyone to want to have a respectable understanding of what my hypothetical minor child believes, as well as who their friends are and what substances they may or may not ingest. And while I will respect their beliefs (insofar as legal activities are concerned), as long as they are a (hypothetical) minor child whose welfare I am responsible for, I expect them to keep me informed of such things, provided I respect their right to have their own beliefs and opinions, whether I share them or not.

If it's any consolation, I'd feel the same way about whether or not they wanted to try the Atkins Diet. Hopefully I would not have been such a total butthead as a parent that this would present too much of a problem. After all, if they feel "this is something I don't want to discuss with my atheist asshole parent," we have a lot bigger problems than the fact that they've decided to believe in something I may personally think is silly.

I would hope that I would respect them as a person enough to allow them to decide for themselves whether it is meaningful for them, without having to share it myself. After all, they may choose to do something for a living that I find a crashing bore. They may choose to have more children than I would. They may have a different sexual preference or style, they may listen to music that gives me hives. They may even eat mayonnaise on white bread with bologna, because they are not me.

But I should be aware of these things while they are still (my hypothetical) children. Locks on bedroom doors, contents of drawers and diaries are sacred. But communication is important between people who love and respect each other. When they are of age, their hypothetical selves can tell me to kiss off with my blessing. Hopefully they would still call me if they needed a good lawyer.

And don't underestimate the value of understanding. With understanding can come mutual respect as well as whole-hearted support, especially for someone who does not tend to take things on faith.

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]

Family Man · 08-31-2002, 07:34 AM

I'm a father of two pre-adolescents. I've consistently told them, since they've been old enough to ask me about it, what my opinion of religion is but also that ultimately they will have to make up their own minds when they are old enough. If they choose to become Christian at 16, I'll drive them to church. I just won't join them.

bonduca · 08-31-2002, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Family Man:
I'm a father of two pre-adolescents. I've consistently told them, since they've been old enough to ask me about it, what my opinion of religion is but also that ultimately they will have to make up their own minds when they are old enough. If they choose to become Christian at 16, I'll drive them to church. I just won't join them.

I agree. That is, as long as my imaginary offspring don't bust my ass about going out for ice cream after I drop them off.

Starboy · 08-31-2002, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by agapeo:
Starboy

I think perhaps the issue of the rationale of Christianity/Atheism is a subject of discussion in another topic. On this one I prefer (if I continue with the discussion) to focus on the topic that Helen brought up.

Just responding to your agressive christian post.

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08-31-2002, 07:03 AM	#15
agapeo Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: OH Posts: 376	Starboy I think perhaps the issue of the rationale of Christianity/Atheism is a subject of discussion in another topic. On this one I prefer (if I continue with the discussion) to focus on the topic that Helen brought up.

08-31-2002, 07:34 AM	#18
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	I'm a father of two pre-adolescents. I've consistently told them, since they've been old enough to ask me about it, what my opinion of religion is but also that ultimately they will have to make up their own minds when they are old enough. If they choose to become Christian at 16, I'll drive them to church. I just won't join them.

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