Volestrangler

To which I would say, I did ask for Biblical chapter and verse to back up this, and similar, theists' assertions.

Edited to add...

If no theist responds, should I conclude that their claim is basically bull-squeezings?

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Muriel Volestrangler ]</p>

happyboy

of course! who ELSE could the constitution have been referring to? certainly not the deist God a few of the founding fathers believed in!

Radcliffe Emerson

Or the complete lack of any god at all, like George Washington's atheism!
Yes, Washington was an atheist. Anyone can find this info on the Founding Fathers on the 'net.
As for Xtians who think this nation was founded as a Christian nation, they're morons.

Buffman

Radcliffe Emerson

Or the complete lack of any god at all, like George Washington's atheism!
Yes, Washington was an atheist. Anyone can find this info on the Founding Fathers on the 'net.
As for Xtians who think this nation was founded as a Christian nation, they're morons.

Sorry, good friend Emerson. I fear you will have to provide more verifiable evidence than just your word that Washington was an atheist. I think that you will discover that the furthest you could remove him from Christianity would be to title him as a Deist. I can find no evidence that could be used to call him an atheist. If I were you, I would not bet on your claim because you will lose quickly and easily. You have not done enough research.

You will also lose any bet that this nation was not founded by Christians. (Now read that closely.) I said nothing about the United States being "founded" as a Christian Nation. I said it was founded "by" Christians. There is a huge difference between those two positions. You need to learn about a Federal Republic.

Might I suggest that you start with a review of the information available in the II Library.

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/bio.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/bio.shtml</a>

[ December 01, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

Family Man

In debates I've seen on the topic, that is essentially the position these people take. The argument goes essentially like this.

1. The majority of the founding fathers were Christian.
2. Since I am Christian too, they must have held the same positions as I do.
3. I believe that this is a Christian nation.
4. Therefore, the founding fathers must have intended the US to be a Christian nation.

Never mind that language that explicitly made Christianity the official religion was voted down at the constitutional convention several times, with logic like that how can you go wrong?

Buffman

Family Man

4. Therefore, the founding fathers must have intended the US to be a Christian nation.

Yup! That is the sales pitch the radical Christian religionists attempt to sell. The problem is that had the founding/framing fathers wanted this to be a Christian Nation, they had every opportunity to make it one in the Constitution. They didn't. That speaks to intent just about as loudly as anything can.

And then there's that business about Pres. Adams, with the unanimous vote of the Senate confirming The Treaty With Tripoli on June 10, 1797 (just six years after the ratification of the Bill of Rights). The Treaty that says in Article 11:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-..."

And then there is this little goodie:

THE UNITED STATES RATIFICATION AND PROCLAMATION


[The fourth document in the Department of State file, and the last to be noted, is at once the United States instrument of ratification and
the proclamation, dated June 10, 1797.
In its combination of what are ordinarily two separate papers, that document is of unusual form. It is under the Great Seal and is signed by
Adams and attested by Pickering as Secretary of State; but before the testimonium clause is this paragraph of ratification and proclamation:]


"Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed and performed with good Faith on the part of the United
States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I-do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military
within the United States, and all others citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfil the said Treaty and every clause and
article thereof."

(TREATIES AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL ACTS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, EDITED BY HUNTER MILLER, VOLUME 2, DOCUMENTS 1-40 :1776-1818, UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON: 1931, For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, Washington. D. C. Price $4 (cloth) pp. XXIV, XXVI)

Volestrangler

Yup. Bull-squeezings. Thought so.

lpetrich

Ed the "Wildlife Biologist" has made similar claims in RRP.

He's quoted Acts 6, which describes the selection of some people to do various tasks, and he's claimed that that was the origin of election of leaders.

He's also unaware of the origin of the name of the Senate.

And he's claimed that the Bible supports freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and so forth.

Buffman

ipetrich

And he's claimed that the Bible supports freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and so forth.

Has Ed ever read the 10 Commandments concerning freedom of speech and religion?

More meadow muffins on top of dried cow pies.

lpetrich

Ed's argument was that Jesus Christ tried to persuade rather than force.

And I gather that "meadow muffins" are something like "road apples" and "cow chips".

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>