Starboy

Hey HI, what is a metaphysical naturalist?

Starboy

High Ideologue

I did a search of the Secular Web and found Richard C. Carrier gave the following description of what a Metaphysical Naturalist is.

The idea that the natural world is all that there is is a myth and fantasy based on mystery. Are you a Metaphysical Naturalist? If so, then are you going to answer the question that I asked to initiate this thread?

I reiterate. If you are willing to recognize and acknowledge that Metaphysical Naturalists include a form of myth and fantasy {that the natural world is all that there is} in their non theistic worldview, then I have to wonder: Why choose to include this particular form of myth and fantasy based on mystery in your worldview over an extreme myth and fantasy based on mystery that produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable?

High Ideologue

I suspect that I can guess where you are going with this line of questioning. So let me head you off at the pass. I visited dictionary.com to find definitions for truth and reality. I found there were many definitions for the word 'reality' including the following: all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you. Since every body's experience is different every mind's reality is different. I found there were many definitions for the word 'truth' including the following: a fact that has been verified.

So the difference between truth and reality is definition and word usage. In my use of the word 'reality' in the phrase 'ideology fashions reality', I am using the above definition for the word reality. In this thread, I am suggesting that some people tend to combine their finite understanding of truth with a favored myth and call it reality. The world view that results from combining finite truth and myth appears to be the way things are because it is in accord with their experiences. Nevertheless, there is no scientifically reproducible discovery to prove or disprove the idea that the natural world is all that there is. This idea is a myth and fantasy based on mystery. Metaphysical Naturalists are using ideology, a combination of truth and myth, to fashion reality as do gnostic theists. For a revelant examples of Metaphysical Naturalist using ideology to fashion reality, take a look at my earlier responses to posts to other infidels in this thread.

I admit my meaning for the phrase 'ideology fashions reality' is not transparently obvious to the causal reader. The poetry I wrote in the initial post of this thread is actually part of the lyrics to a song. In song writing it is important to be transparently obvious. As such, I am going to shorten the phrase 'ideology fashions reality' to the phrase 'ideology'. So thank you for point out the ambiguities.

Are you a Metaphysical Naturalist? If so, then are you going to answer the question that I asked to initiate this thread?

I reiterate. If you are willing to recognize and acknowledge that Metaphysical Naturalists include a form of myth and fantasy {that the natural world is all that there is} in their non theistic worldview, then I have to wonder: Why choose to include this particular form of myth and fantasy based on mystery in your worldview over an extreme myth and fantasy based on mystery that produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable?

Starboy

Hi High,

I don't think I am. The term appears to be an oxymoron.

Based on the definitions of these two words, it doesn’t appear that they go together. The only kind of person that I can think of that could possibly fit this category would be a "TV dinner" Christian like seebs.

Starboy

Vorkosigan

The natural world is all there is. Credible evidence and argument for something else, please.

High Ideologue

To me, universe is credible evidence. The argument is that our universe is credible evidence that the world might be infinite and might include a divine eternal soul spirit in addition to the fractal infernal temporal universe we sense and perceive in and around us. Our universe is also credible evidence that the natural world might be all that there is. Given the limitations imposed upon our sense and perceptions by the alien fractal infernal temporal infinitesimal dimensions of our seed bodies and given the limitations of the alien, fractal, infernal, temporal tools of science, we simply can not know for sure.

However, I may think, believe and expect that my myth and fantasy based on the mystery is true without knowing that my myth and fantasy based on mystery is true. Because I do not know that my myth and fantasy based on mystery is not true, and because to think, believe and expect that my myth and fantasy based on mystery is true produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable. Another way to say the same is. I may imagine my fashion reality is true, yet not realize my fashion reality is true. Because I do not realize my fashion reality is not true and to imagine that my fashion reality is true produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable.

Why should I stoop to feeling sorry;

when I can feel the way I want;

when I can think a thought that’s joyful;

when there’s no proof my thought’s not right?

Just take a look at what’s around you!

Where do you think that it came from?

Was it all just one magic moment,

or is there magic yet to come?

Well I believe in magic moments,

and I believe there’s more to come!

It doesn’t take more than a feeling,

and the willingness to become;

an actor in our favorite drama;

a player in the game of life;

an entertainer in a costume;

dancing with death, disease and strife!

DeLurking

I wish I could have your skills, HI. I could know I am right now in a caribean beach toasting under the sun, and have emotional responses of joy and pleasure, instead of just looking at what surrounds me and freeze in my room.

Daggah

That does not demonstrate that you understand science. That demonstrates that you understand the straw man concept of science that your ridiculous website has on it. If I put up a page on quantum mechanics - which I know nothing about, and then claimed that I understand it because I put up a webpage on it, that would be ridiculous as well.

Only a dumbass would not be able to figure out what I was referring to.

You can't prove absolutely that ANY idea is true. And that's not what I said anyway. I said I don't care about proving it as true.

Bullshit. If what you just said is true, EVERYTHING is 'myth' and 'fantasy,' rendering the two words useless and meaningless.

Who said I was a metaphysical naturalist? Not I. Don't make the mistake of thinking that because I see through your ridiculous assertions and fanatical claims that I am anything. And again, myths and fantasies are beliefs in things that don't exist. The Greek gods are myths. The Roman gods are myths. The Christian god is a myth. Etc. Etc.

Because they're not TRUE! Do you not have ANY intellectual integrity? I don't care if it would make me feel better to believe there's something more. That isn't enough. To make me believe would require EVIDENCE. Which, by the way, seems to be utterly lacking. And because I have integrity, I don't believe in things that aren't supported by evidence.

Even more to the point, I believed in all of these things once. These beliefs brought ME nothing but misery. I'm much happier now, as an atheist. So are many others. I've already pointed to several people who were happy with non-belief, or in Jefferson's case, at least believed that one doesn't need a diety to be a good and happy person. So atheism and naturalism (note: I do not say metaphysical naturalism) can bring happiness as well, with the added benefit of, unlike supernaturalism and theism, being rational.

Furthermore, the idea of a god is absolutely ridiculous. The idea of a soul is absolutely ridiculous. Neither concept holds up to logical scrutiny.

I think I'm done responding to you. You're a troll. If it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, believe in whatever the hell you want. I'm just glad others have more integrity than that.

Daggah

One more post.

HI, why not take it a bit further? Why not take a step to imagine your ultimate fantasy. Got it? Now, why not believe that, every time you go to sleep, mystical fairies take the shape of your fantasy woman/women/man/men and send your soul to their playground so that they can carry out your fantasy, over and over again.

Wouldn't that bring joy to you?

Of course it would.

So why don't you believe that this is true?

Hell, why not take it farther? If you're like me, the thought of the Holocaust depresses and angers you. Why not just believe that it never happened? Why not believe that AIDs doesn't exist? Wouldn't believing these things make you feel better as well?

Eudaimonist

HI: Why choose to include [metaphysical naturalism] in your worldview over an extreme myth and fantasy based on mystery that produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable?

HI, I have no need of your myths. I find joy, love, and other valuable emotions with metaphysical naturalism as part of my eudaimonistic worldview. I find that being dishonest about reality makes me feel dishonest, and so your placebo (or wild assed guess) will not work for me. Keep your sugarpill.