High Ideologue

We're putting on,

Our best suit, our best tie, our best line.

Our best dress, our best style, our best smile.

Our best hi, our best truth,

get ready set go!



We're putting on

Our best mask, our best dance, our best cry,

Our best chant, our best spell, our best sigh,

our best hi, our best myth,

lights, action and show!



Ideology

Fashions Reality

What is Ideology? Ideology is a body of ideas, a world view, reflecting the needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class and or culture. Ideology is made up of a combination of truth and knowledge based on discovery and myth and fantasy based on mystery. You are a part of the group calling itself the Secular Web. I found that some Metaphysical Naturalists who post to threads in forums of the Secular Web deny that they too embrace a form of myth and fantasy based on mystery. The fact of the matter is that they do. Quoting now from the index page of this web site: Our goal is to defend and promote a non theistic worldview which holds that the natural world is all that there is, a closed system. There is no truth and knowledge based on scientifically reproducible discovery that you can sight to prove conclusively that this is the case. It is possible though that this is the case. As such, belief in a non theistic worldview includes one myth and fantasy based on mystery out of a number, diversity and variety of possibilities only limited by our creative abilities and powers of imagination. So what Metaphysical Naturalists are doing is combining a finite understanding of truth and knowledge based on discovery with a particular form of myth and fantasy based on mystery to fashion their perception of reality. The only thing in question is your ability to recognize and acknowledge this.

If you are willing to recognize and acknowledge that Metaphysical Naturalists include a form of myth and fantasy {that the natural world is all that there is} in their non theistic worldview, then I have to wonder: Why choose to include this particular form of myth and fantasy based on mystery in your worldview over an extreme myth and fantasy based on mystery that produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable?

braces_for_impact

Assuming this one comes back, I'd rate this particular trollish argument at, oh, I'd say a 7.

Secondly, if this particular lurker will hang around, will they kindly be a bit more concrete in their assertion that metaphysical naturalism is party based on (and I quote now)... I actually have several more things to say regarding this post, but I don't wish to waste my time in the event that (gasp!) this may be a quick cut and paste drive by.

Regards,

Ron

Ab_Normal

HI's previous thread is still going strong; I'd love to see what you have to say, 'cause I'm too boggled to come up with an answer.

High Ideologue

Thanks for you words of encouragement. However, I think we are getting off the original topic in the previous thread. I think the question I ask in this thread is strong enough to deserve a thread of its' own.

High Ideologue

Allow me to clarify.

I quote from the index page of this site: Metaphysical naturalists defend and promote a non theistic worldview which holds that the natural world is all that there is; a closed system. What is the basis for this assertion that the natural world is all that there is; a closed system? Is there truth and knowledge based on scientifically reproducible discovery to prove conclusively that the natural world is all that there is; a closed system? No there is no truth and knowledge based on scientifically reproducible discovery to prove conclusively that the natural world is all that there is; a closed system. So this assertion is not truth and knowledge based on scientifically reproducible discovery. Is there truth and knowledge based on scientifically reproducible discovery that proves conclusively that the natural world is not all that there is; a closed system? No there is no truth and knowledge based on scientifically reproducible discovery to prove conclusively that the natural world is not all that there is; a closed system. So this assertion that the natural world is all that there is; a closed system is not lie and ignorance based on denial. Having eliminated truth and knowledge based on discovery and lies and ignorance based denials as possibilities the only other thing that this assertion could be is myth and fantasy based on mystery. So what Metaphysical Naturalists are doing is combining a finite understanding of truth and knowledge based on discovery with a particular form of myth and fantasy based on mystery to fashion their perception of reality. I ask Metaphysical Naturalists again: Why choose to include this particular form of myth and fantasy based on mystery in your worldview over an extreme myth and fantasy based on mystery that produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable?

Well this isn't a quick cut and paste drive by, so you will need to find a better excuse for avoiding participation in this discussion.

penumbra

"I ask Metaphysical Naturalists again: Why choose to include this particular form of myth and fantasy based on mystery in your worldview over an extreme myth and fantasy based on mystery that produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable?"

I'm not a Metaphysical Naturalist, so I really don't have a horse in this race (so to speak), but you've piqued my curiosity, what's the basis for your conclusion that the un-named "extreme myth" produces the most powerful emotional responses? How did/do you measure that?

High Ideologue

What exactly is an extreme? An extreme is either of two values situated at opposite ends of a range of values. To what range of values am I referring? Measurements of quantity of energy, quality of space, longevity of time, and denominator of continuum exist within a range of possible values. Extremes exist as limits at the opposite ends of a range of possible values for the measurement of these dimensions.

In the House of Ideology Manifesto, I demonstrate that discovery limits the values that we may choose for the measure of the dimensions of the content of seed body and form of self. I also demonstrate that mystery does not limit the values that we may choose for the measure of the dimensions of the content of soul spirit and the form of world. Therefore, I select divine and eternal as extreme values for the dimensions of the content of soul spirit and I select infinite and one as extreme values for the form of world. When these extreme values are thought, believed, and expected to be true I produce the most powerful emotive forces of joy, faith and love imaginable: A myth and fantasy based on mystery about the perfection of an infinite divine eternal one who creates an imperfect universe for the divine eternal entertainment of perfect souls. With these extreme values, I balance the powerful emotive forces of sorrow, fear, and anger produced by discovery of the limited values for the measure of the dimensions of the content of seed body and form of self. The content of seed body I describe as fractal infernal in quality of space and temporal in longevity of time. The form of self I describe as alien in quantity of energy and infinite in denominator of continuum. By combining limited values for the dimensions of content of seed body and form of self with extreme values for the dimensions of content of soul spirit and form of world, I create a model of self and world that includes an extreme myth and fantasy that produces the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable. Of course, if one wishes to achieve and maintain high status in a community of faithful believers self organizing around Metaphysical Naturalism then rejecting the particular form of myth and fantasy that Metaphysical Naturalists embrace {the natural world is all there is} and adopting the most extreme form of myth and fantasy imaginable would possibly result in being ridiculed, humiliated, and ostracized. Therefore in this case, an extreme form of myth and fantasy would not produce the most powerful emotional responses of joy, faith and love imaginable. Same applies to those seeking to achieve and maintain high status in a community of faithful believers self organizing around gnostic theism.

In building upon this extreme myth and fantasy, I am free to choose from a number, variety and diversity of positive possible ways of making ornamentations. In the House of Ideology Manifesto I give an example of one way of making ornamentations: I intentionally anthropomorphize this extreme myth and fantasy by calling the infinite divine eternal one Mother God. In accord with the yin yang dualistic philosophy, I choose a female gender identity for the infinite divine eternal one because the existence of the infinite divine eternal one is not obvious to us through our senses and perceptions. I choose a masculine gender identity for the light energy and matter of the universe because the existence of light energy and matter is obvious to us through our senses and perceptions. Some have gotten hung up on the fact that I wrote about one possible way of making ornamentations to this extreme myth and fantasy, thinking that I am suggesting it is the only way. It is not. This is only one of a number, diversity, and variety of possible ways of making ornamentations only limited by our creative abilities and powers of imagination. I support a creative approach to making ornamentations to this extreme myth and fantasy. A logical consequence of this creative approach is tolerance within the House of Ideology of a pluralistic diversity of ways of making ornamentations to this extreme myth and fantasy. With respect to myth and fantasy included in other world views, none of us have a lock on the truth. I respect the freedom of others to make up their own minds about self and world and so I tolerate the beliefs of others. I recognize that there is no way anyone else could have built precisely the same model of self and world as I have. We combine our truths and our myths to make up our models of self and world. Our models are as unique to us as our fingerprints. There is no point to trying to make someone else have the exact same model of self and world as we have. It is not possible. However, I seek out those who are like mind so as to join with them in forming a spiritual association, a community of faithful believers.

I also believe, there is no one to save. Every soul is free in the love of our divine eternal spirit. For every soul is divine and eternal and therefore an infinitesimal part of our spirit an infinite, divine, eternal, one. Upon the death of our fractal infernal temporal seed bodies, the divine immunity and eternal life of our souls will be revealed by our spirit. Our divine eternal souls will be free in the love of our spirit to choose from amongst an infinite number, variety and diversity of options made available to our souls by our spirit for our continued entertainment. Furthermore because our divine eternal spirit bestows upon all souls a love that is infinitely abundant there is no way that any transgression one may be guilty of during this lifetime could in any way result in a loss of freedom or a diminishment of that love. Our premise of a fate and destiny of all divine eternal souls ruled by eternal love and divine freedom of our spirit, lead us to think, believe and expect that our spirit accepts as equally good entertainment all models of self and world built by all divine eternal souls within the minds generated by all fractal infernal temporal seed bodies.

Viti

I still have no idea what you're asking...and I'll bet I am not the only one. Can you ask the question in one simple short sentence.

High Ideologue

My question is clear to those who are able and willing to understand it. However, I will make it even simpler for you: Why do metaphysical naturalists choose to include within their worldviews the myth and fantasy that the natural world is all that there is?

Vorkosigan

High Id -- check these threads

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=36796
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=36827
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=37134
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=37149
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=36986
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=36975
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=37215
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=37233

Then you'll have some answers.

Vorkosigan