David M. Payne

BadBadBad

So, I've finally found a theist that actually reads Romans 9 literally. God creates us like a potter making his clay pot to be either blessed, honored, shown mercy, and saved, or dishonoured, hardened against God, and damned for eternity in hell fire. There's no Free Will. God predestines us from inception to either salvation or damnation. 7thAngel, why don't you start a new thread on this. Reading this literally presents you with a whole new set of problems.

Based on this new revelation that we can read Romans 9 literally and throw out Free Will. We can add to God's murderous attrocities all of the screaming souls in hell, once and for all without argument. Which is worse, God as a mass murdering genocidal monster, or God as a loving creator predestining ions of human generations to eternal damnation and torture in Hell? I guess we don't need that distinction since we get them both with the Christian God.

7thangel

Unfortunately, brett, I don't believe in the literal hell. And there is actually no free will. And yes, the concept of predestination will end up that we are but robots, and for that, we become as dead. And that we become free from sin; because we become mere vessels.

And in fairness to atheists, even scholastic knowledge will end up to conclude that man has no free will. Freedom is an illusion, the brain is nothing but all under the control of the natural laws. No one can really add an ounce of knowledge to another. Atheists will remain atheist according to the dictate of their brain which is nothing but bound by the natural laws. Dont we get it? Gays are not gays by choice. Insanity is not a choice. To become smart is not a choice. The way we behave is not a choice. Any change in us does not come by choice because the brain is not being contolled by an invisible power with free will. And if so, then you have no choice but to believe in God. So you have no escape.

It really takes deep knowledge to know that we are just mere vessels, not different to every organisms that exist, living according to its biological existence. And as science is coming to conclude the deterministic nature of humans, God, in His wisdom, had before declared the that they who see God will "die." Which mean that man is just God's creation, it doesn't have it's own life. And Paul was very clear when explaining predestination that we are just mere pots.

Now, my God and the discovery of sciences speaks of the same thing about predeterministic nature of humans, (unless, of course, if your knowledge had not yet reach such a conclusion, you will surely disagree with me), you cannot blame my God of saying the Truth. But I guess, you'll gonna throw me the argument that I am just making my own meaning on the words of the Bible. Well, just to remind you, Whether God or by nature itself, we are all predestined. And I prefer God's predestination, rather, God preferred me to choose His predestination.

David M. Payne

I like it brettc.

David

David M. Payne

You know, the nice thing about believing in a non-existent being is you can make up your own religions, rules, sayings, holy books laws etc, and never have to worry that he/she/it (Place your deity here.) will ever correct you. What a deal! 7th, I think you might have something interesting going on here. The question is, where will your interpretation of God/religion end up, eh? Will it be a one-man/woman/other show, a minor cult, or a major new religion? Ah, the possibilities boggle the mind.

David

" Authoritarian Gods and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!"

BadBadBad

7thAngel,

So you read Romans literally, but then you throw out one of the basic tenants of Christianity, Hell. I see. Most people read all the Free Will stuff and throw out Romans 9. Well, I agree you have to throw out something. I just throw out the God part. The rest of the Bible makes a lot more sense that way.

BC

David M. Payne

Well-said BC. Every time I ask a theist where free will argument is in the bible, I find out they don't know themselves. They usually quote this or that passage as "proof" that it came from God, but when you try to find a passage, any passage, that says," And God gave man free will" it isn't there. As far as I've been able to discover it is an argument that isn't in the Talmud, the Bible or the Qu'ran. It just appeared one day, and appears to me to have been made up to deflect the "Problem of Evil" that was pointed out by the Greek philosopher Epicurus, among others. Why does this not surprise me? If we could just get rid of the BS about the existence of God and all the other superstitious mumbo jumbo, there are some parts worth saving, like some of the ten commandments. The "holy" books have some value as historical documents, as long as one is cognizant of their purpose, to serve as a tool for brainwashing some people into believing fairy tales, and giving over their lives to the control of others. The religion biz (Abrahamic religions at least) seeks the usual; money, power and influence, and always has.

All we can do is try to point out the absurdities of the God/religion biz to those who have an open mind. I think the Internet and web sites like this one provide a valuable tool in this regard. With the forums, and the articles and stories the Sec-Web publishes here, they give each or us a medium for material like this thread, or my latest story Utopia-612, in the agora. Now we have some public forums that are world wide, and open to everyone. This is something that has never existed before, and hopefully it will help bring an end to the control that these Bronze Age religions still exert over so many good people. In the mean time one has to :banghead: at the stupidity of all this religious nonsense.

David

" Authoritarian Gods and religion, the oldest scam in history, and it still sucks them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!"

BadBadBad

David,

I've been hit a lot with this Free Will business in the last few years. I'm just now becoming aware that like you said, it's not in the Bible. I'm going to start asking about that when I hear it from christians. I read here the other day that Free Will came up in a book written in the 60s. Is that true?

I've also been hit with, "oh, you haven't read the Bible?" Well, it's all there. Just read it. I'm doing that, and I'm shocked over and over by what it actually says. Now that I've found 2000 years of critics material on the Bible through the Internet, I respond to these christians. Read it again I think you skipped a few parts, plus the truth is out there on the Internet. Just read it!

BadBadBad

7thAngel,

No literal hell?

Since I'm clearly not going to heaven, what happens to me when I die? Do I just die and cease to exist? Do I just continue to exist in spirit in nothingness for eternity? No lakes of fire. No gnashing of teeth? Does my family go to the same place, and am I with them for eternity? How is that different than Heaven?

No Free Will?

So I don't have any obligation to get past God's heart hardening tricks? I mean like Paul said, who am I to question my potter? I don't have any obligation to even attempt to believe in God? All the do good christians that have tried to spread the Gospel and convert us heathens are really wasting their time way more than they thought?

What about sin? If I'm predestined to either Heaven or the non-literal hell, what difference does Sin make?

Rational BAC

I'm going to throw something in here---------We cafeteria believers seem to get no respect at all--from either side.

I am a Christian, believe in parts of the Bible --but not others. Ergo- I am one of those cafeteria Christians. Damned proud of it too. Tough cookies. To all of you.

How can an oral tradition (at least in the New Testament) truly be correctly written down decades later? Of course it cannot be.

And then, centuries later, most of it tossed out and what was left interpreted and retranscribed by committees of VERY fallible men.---now we are bordering on the absurd as far as a faithful representation of the thinking of God.

The Bible may have been divinely inspired---but that is all it was --an inspiration. And like most inspirations (at least in the modern sense), you may have the best intentions, but that does not mean you did it right.

The Bible was written by Man and was subject to the very errant nature of Man in transcribing it. The best way I can put it --is the Bible is the divine word of God--with a whole bunch of typos.

The Old Testament is mostly bad history, bad science, and in many cases, bad morality. But there is some beautiful stuff in there amidst all the crapola.

The New Testament, if you leave out a lot of what St Paul wrote, and consider very seriously only what Jesus is purported to have said-------does seem for the most part to be not only truly inspired by a Supreme Being-----------but an excellent system of common sense, day to day morality.

I pick and choose from the Bible all the time. One nice thing about believing in a personal relationship with my saviour-----is that I believe He is guiding me in my picking and choosing.

I know I am going to tick just about everybody off--believers and non-believers--with this. But I don't really care.

Cafeteria Christians are the best kind you know.