Eldy

How about this topic?: Resolved, that all human beings ARE spiritual beings, whether believer or unbeliever, because they demonstrate spiritual characteristics that are not found among the other animal or the vegetable kindgoms.

Supporting commentary:

1. The human being knows he exists. No animal shows evidence of self-awareness or existence. They cannot know, think, nor say, "I am."

2. The human being can make some free choices. Animals cannot, apparently.

3. The human being can predict the future consequences of a particular event. Animals cannot do this, it seems. I had a little dog that wound his rope around chairs and other obstcles, never once discovering in 17 years he would tie himself up more with more circling. I can leap and learn, the dog leaps and never learns to predict.

4. Human beings can understand the concept of truth. They know there are true and untrue facts.

5. Human beings can understand the concept of goodness. They don't agree on what goodness is, but they understand the concept. Animals cannot do this, even the great apes. Apes eat their children, at times.

6. Human beings understand beauty. They have a feel for what is pretty and what is not.

7. Human beings understand the concept of value. That is what this site is all about. Some ideas are more valuable than others.

8. Human beings are programed with a desire for "the upward reach," wanting to know or not to know of something beyond themselves that is better and brighter. That is what this site is about.

9. Human beings ask themselves: "Is this all there is?" Animals and vegetables don't.

10. Human beings understand and practice LOVE as they understand it. It always involves a giving of themselves for the happiness and benefit of others.

I assert that these are spiritual characteristics, without which we would still be swinging from the trees going, "Ape call, doodly ohbah!" But, having these characteristics, we stand head and shoulders above anything in the animal kingdom, and we hark back to a greater origin than the animals or the vegetables.

The question is, "Who?"

Philosoft

I hope you're not married to this argument because you've got two massive problems.

1) All of your individual assertions are empirically unsupported.

2) If, by chance, you manage to empirically support one or more assertion, all you have is 'Humans are different from other animals in these ways.' Your logical link to 'humans are spiritual' is nonexistent.

tronvillain

Eldy:

Well, most human beings know they exist, but it's difficult to be sure about animals. Without specifying what we mean by "know" and "think" nothing much can be accomplished, though since animals seem impoverished in the language department I'll go along with their inability to say "I am."

Again, without specifying what we mean by "free choices" nothing much can be accomplished. If you mean something like "identifying alternative courses of action and selecting one" you might be right.

This is definitely a matter of degree. Humans may be better at extracting future from the present than most animals, but many other animals do it to some degree.

What exactly does it mean to "understand the concept" of something? If it involves language, you may be right, but that other animals do not understand the concept of truth does not preclude them having the concept of truth.

What exactly does apes eating their children have to do with them understanding the concept of goodness? Again, if understanding involves language you may be right, but not understanding the concept of goodness does not preclude having a concept of goodness. After all, it's not as if apea are just doing things at random.

What does understanding beauty have to do with having a feel for what is pretty and what is not? It is apparent that many animals prefer the appearance of certain things to other things, and if that's not a feel for what is pretty and what is not, what is it?

Yet again, not understanding the concept of value does not preclude having a concept of value. Animals appear to value a great many things.

Well, humans are certainly curious about the world.

This is apparently the case, since it is presumably difficult to ask such a question without language.

There is no apparent reason that other animals should not have something analagous to "love" (an extremely vague term), though they may not understand it. Do human being actually understand love anyway?

Finally, I see no reason to call those characteristics "spiritual" even if they are unique to humans. I mean, why bother? It would just confuse things.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ]</p>

tronvillain

Oh, and Eldy? The little assertion you tack onto the end, "But, having these characteristics, we stand head and shoulders above anything in the animal kingdom, and we hark back to a greater origin than the animals or the vegetables" is going to have to be supported with something. What exactly is the obstacle to evolving said characteristics?

philechat

1. The human being knows he exists. No animal shows evidence of self-awareness or existence. They cannot know, think, nor say, "I am."

Wrong. Self-awareness is seen in Chimpanzees, using the mirror experiment. Chimps who were taught American Sign Language know how to distinguish "me" and "you", as well as active and passive verb tenses.

2. The human being can make some free choices. Animals cannot, apparently.

What do you mean by free choice? If it simply means the ability to choose from two or more options, with differing consequences, then dogs certainly have the ability as well.

I was on the street one day when a dog passed by me (unleashed) with his owner. I had a bag of cooked chicken in my hand. Why do you think the dog continued to follow his owner instead of following me and my chicken? Could that be considered choice as well?

3. The human being can predict the future consequences of a particular event. Animals cannot do this, it seems. I had a little dog that wound his rope around chairs and other obstcles, never once discovering in 17 years he would tie himself up more with more circling. I can leap and learn, the dog leaps and never learns to predict.

Not true. Animals by the way are better predictors of earthquakes than humans. They get anxious maybe an hour or so before earthquakes due to the change of sound waves preceeding earthquakes. Does that mean they forsee catastrope?

4. Human beings can understand the concept of truth. They know there are true and untrue facts.

Chimps could also do that. Maybe not as sophisticated as the humans, but chimps could detect non-sensical languages reasonably well (using the same experiment with American Sign Language).

5. Human beings can understand the concept of goodness. They don't agree on what goodness is, but they understand the concept. Animals cannot do this, even the great apes. Apes eat their children, at times.

Okay. What is "goodness"? Does avoidence of poisonous food (seen in most animals)constitutes "goodness"? Is the protection of one's baby (seen in birds) "goodness"? Is cooperation for hunting (in wolves and lions) "goodness"? Also, in ancient time humans abandoned their weaker babies in the wild for practical reasons...so I guess it shows our humble origins?

6. Human beings understand beauty. They have a feel for what is pretty and what is not.

"Beauty?" Animals could distinguish between tastier food from undelectable food. Female birds go after the males with the brightest feathers or the largest gift. Perhaps not a theory of aesthetics (which I think only less than 10% of human beings think about anyways), but certainly appreciation and discrimination of objects and the opposite sex.

7. Human beings understand the concept of value. That is what this site is all about. Some ideas are more valuable than others.

Value? Ditto for beauty. Female penguins accept male penguins who go after the bigger and brighter rock, and reject those with small rocks. So...

8. Human beings are programed with a desire for "the upward reach," wanting to know or not to know of something beyond themselves that is better and brighter. That is what this site is about.

Yeah. This site. However this site is not representative of the average human population. Does competition for more expensive cars or more high-paying jobs also constitutes "upward reach"? If so animals do them as well as the humans.

9. Human beings ask themselves: "Is this all there is?" Animals and vegetables don't.

What do you mean? Disatisfaction is often found in animals. Philosophical inclination is a minority trait even in humans.

10. Human beings understand and practice LOVE as they understand it. It always involves a giving of themselves for the happiness and benefit of others.

Love? What about birds that protect their children? What about dogs who save its owner? Or elephants that mourn for their dead?

"If the fact that brutes abstract not be made the distinguishing property of that sort of animal, I fear a great many of those that pass on for men must be reckoned into their number"~Bishop Berkeley

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

Theli

I think you have misstaken spirituallity for intelligence.

BTW, what is spirituallity anyway?
anyone?

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Elvis ]

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Deggial ]</p>

himynameisPwn

1. Dolphins and chimps exhibit self-awareness. They look in mirrors and can tell that its them.

2. Free choice? My dog makes free choices all the time. She chooses to not poop in the house because I've trained her not to. She could poop in the house if she wanted to, but she chooses not to, is that not a free choice?

3. That dog is just stupid, most animals can predict future events, based on past experience or common sense. For example, has your dog checked everything? Has your dog ever run out into the street and gotten hit by a car and then decided it was a bad idea? No, I'd say they know not to stand in front of something moving that fast. Of course, with both humans and dogs, there are members of the species that do get hit by cars.

4. Every animal can understand the truth. For example, its true that if I run against that electric fence it will shock me because I've done it before and it has.

5. Just because apes eat their children, doesn't mean its not good. Morality is a human invented concept, so saying only humans are subject to it, then saying we are better than everything else because of it is stupid. Are plants better than us because of photosynthesis?

6. Another human defined concept. Of course, different people see different things as beautiful. What if someone saw everything as ugly? or someone was indifferent to everything?

7. Every animal values something. My dog values our walks more than she values getting yelled at.

8. Maybe animals know theres no god? Maybe its just not important to them as they struggle for survival?

9. Can you speak to animals? How do you know what they are thinking?

10. Ducks are monogamous animals. They have one partner their whole lives, and they don't divorce. Ducks are more human than us? My dog loves me. Most dogs would die for their masters, is that not love?

One of the last sane

So your dog was thick. I have had horses learn to be tethered and to untangle themselves if they started getting tangled. Horses are, without question, less intelligent than most dogs but not, apparently, your dog.

A single thick dog proves nothing.

I'm with Deggial, what you describe is intelligence, not spirituality.

sandlewood

I’m not even sure what the word “spiritual” means. I know what people believe they mean when they throw it around. But definitions seem very vague to me. How is spirit different from consciousness or intelligence?

A lot of what you’re talking about is intelligence. But defining and measuring intelligence is difficult even among humans. IQ tests can be found to be culturally biased. In fact, to construct an IQ test you are defining what you mean by intelligence. But based on what?

All the dogs may be laughing at us. They are thinking, “Humans are so dumb. They can’t even recognize their own territory by sniffing trees. They don’t burry anything valuable. And I bark at them very clearly but they don’t seem to understand.”

Perhaps you have identified what is different between us and other animals and then defined that as being better. Although I don’t see that as necessarily true. Intelligence is just another evolved trait to help in survival. And I certainly think other animals are self-aware. Why else would they try to avoid pain?

Ryanfire

Eldy, those are blind assertions from a lack of understanding(and education). You're grasping for something that is not present, or proven to exist.

They've recorded a whole range of sounds from dolphins and discovered a growing language. The mirror test did prove self awareness. A dolphin observed the mirror and made bubbles and realized it was him/her. A noise similar to laughter came from the dolphin.

There is nothing spiritual about the world, we do not possess magic skills, or transcend the laws of nature.

Spirtuality could best be described as an emotion to the *common* good of man.