Pantera

HaHaHa. I pop over to Cygnus' Study to catch up on Eternal (aka OneMan) and what's the thread at the top of the page? Why, yet another <a href="http://forum.cygnus-study.com/showthread.php?s=837f3daf7d217e7af15ed4a7d3c7c423& threadid=2806" target="_blank">rehash of Pascal's Wager</a>.

Orpheous99

Originally posted by Layman:

I actually don't think

We already knew that.

I'm superior in intellect to everyone here.

False humility is just as bad.

But I've made plenty of good arguments in favor of Christianity.

All based on deluded ideas.

And I've made various such arguments from time to time to various persons. Some people have been convinced, some haven't.

Was that before or after they had their lobotomy?

Draygomb

I created a topic called assuming god exists and even with the assumption that god exists no one has even come close to proving their religion to be correct.

You say you have evidence for Christianity? Bring it on.

Layman

Correction. No one has convinced you that their religon is correct. Big difference.

Layman

I'm always impressed by the maturity level of the Skeptics here. Reminds me of the playground in elementary school. I'm shocked more people don't drop by to debate y'all. Of course, you probably have yourselves convinced that it's because you are invincible. How sad.

Toto

You are, or course, correct. Draygomb can only assert that he is not convinced. But you would think that if there were a valid proof of one religion or another, that intelligent people of good will would all gravitate towards that religion. Over time, this religion would gain adherents and crowd all other religions out of the marketplace. You would think that 2000 years would be enough time for a religion with any kind of proof behind it to prevail.

But you don't observe this. You see intelligent people who have no religious beliefs, or a wide variety of religious beliefs, and who change them over their lifetimes. (Most of the elite scientists in this nation do not believe in a personal god.) You see new interpretations of Christianity arising continually, and Christians condemning each other to hell over doctrinal disputes that should have been settled if there were any logical proof for Christianity.

Christians who find their arguments rejected by others have to claim that Satan is standing in the way of others' realizing their truth. They should wonder if Satan is clouding their own minds.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

Layman

Well, if you think that atheism is the only valid belief system, then you would think that over time that it would crowd all other religions out of the marketplace.

Toto

I don't think that atheism is the only valid belief system. I think that a strong agnosticism may be the only scientifically supportable system, but that still leaves room for some religious practices. It doesn't leave room for people who think that they can prove one particular belief system with logic.

I have a lot of sympathy for the more secular pagans, and for liberal Christians like Spong and Secular Judaism, and for non-theistic Buddhists, and for people who think that religion is an individual path of discovery. My own path has led me to atheism, but I do not require that of anyone else.

I do think that non-theism is increasing. Even many of those who consider themselves religious do not believe in the supernatural anywhere that it counts, and feel free to pick and choose religious practices and beliefs.

Pat Buchanon echoed the feelings of many True Christians when he said that the US is no longer a Christian nation. The secularlism of most of Western Europe and Japan is well known.

At the beginning of the 20th century, intellectuals believed that religion would wither away. Of course they also believed that there would be no more wars. It didn't happen, because humans are not completely rational, and the social sciences are still not on a firm basis.

Layman

So if these nontheistic religions are the only rational approaches, why do they remain such a small minority. I appreciate that you have faiththat these systems will win out over theistic religions, but you've offered nothing more than that.

But back to your original point: the notion that because no one religion has supplanted all the others, no religion can be supported by any proof. It's obviously wishful thinking on your part.

And if Buchanan is right, then we'll all be Muslims anyway.

Toto

On a world wide basis, I don't think that non-theists are such a small minority, especially if you include those who have only a weak attachment to the Christian or Muslim or Jewish religions, and don't take them seriously.

I don't have "faith" that non-theism will win out. I am just projecting recent trends to make an educated guess.

I notice that theistic religions have a habit of using state power to enforce their monopoly, in particular Islam. I think this may distort the numbers somewhat.

Quote:

But back to your original point: the notion that because no one religion has supplanted all the others, no religion can be supported by any proof. It's obviously wishful thinking on your part.

Nothing wishful about it. It's just evolution in action.

I guess I missed that part.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>