Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Biff the unclean · 06-06-2003, 11:18 AM

But the main point of my post is that of the required sacrifice. Gods required sacrifices for a whole bunch of things, and today these sacrifices seem silly.
It gets even screwier when you consider that we are talking about the Jews.
They didn't have human sacrifice. The story of Isaac and Abraham is probably telling about their early history when human sacrifice was abandoned. They had animal sacrifice--and they ate the animals, only burning bits and pieces.
The animal sacrifices were to please God so that he would make things better in the here and now. The Jews have always been vague about an afterlife. Very few have ever thought that there was one.
The Jews atone for their own sins.
The Jews don't have original sin. The "fall of man" removed them from the Garden of Eden but that's it. Sin isn't passed on. Death didn't come into the world at the Fall. There is no such thing as a spiritual death.
The Messiah was supposed to free them from the Romans. Not leave them to have their country destroyed and everyone driven to the four-corners of the Earth.
To the Jews God is just God. No relatives, no ghosts�just a single God...

So what was the sacrifice for? There is nothing in the Jewish religion that would indicate the slightest need or desire for it.

ManM · 06-06-2003, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taffer
That analogy's a bit skewed. Jesus did not just have his body restored to it's previous state (As would be the analogous case with a healed arm [And assuming that Jesus has a body in heaven, but that's beside the point]) , he's in heaven. AKA eternal bliss, the best place you can possibly be and ultimate joy.

If somebody offered to put cybernetic implants into my arm that allow me to shoot lasers out of my fingers, fly by means of a wrist jet and instantly produce doughnuts out of my elbow, but they'd have to first break my arm to do it, I'd most certainly accept. And I don't think anybody would claim it was a selfless act even if I saved a couple million souls in the process.

Taffer, wouldn't you think the second person of the Trinity was in heaven beforehand? Also, remember doubting Thomas? Jesus still had holes in his hands and feet, and he still had a wound in his side. If that wasn't his body, who's was it?

Mageth · 06-06-2003, 11:42 AM

Jesus still had holes in his hands and feet, and he still had a wound in his side. If that wasn't his body, who's was it?

But remember he was also portrayed as magically appearing in diverse places and walking through closed doors...

Magus55 · 06-06-2003, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taffer
That analogy's a bit skewed. Jesus did not just have his body restored to it's previous state (As would be the analogous case with a healed arm [And assuming that Jesus has a body in heaven, but that's beside the point]) , he's in heaven. AKA eternal bliss, the best place you can possibly be and ultimate joy.

If somebody offered to put cybernetic implants into my arm that allow me to shoot lasers out of my fingers, fly by means of a wrist jet and instantly produce doughnuts out of my elbow, but they'd have to first break my arm to do it, I'd most certainly accept. And I don't think anybody would claim it was a selfless act even if I saved a couple million souls in the process.

News for you. Jesus didn't gain diddly squat from the crucifiction. He gave up His mortal life, in exchange for our salvation. Jesus is the word of God in the flesh, and has been with God the Father in Heaven for eternity. He got nothing from the ressurection that He didn't already have.

Godless Dave · 06-06-2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
News for you. Jesus didn't gain diddly squat from the crucifiction. He gave up His mortal life, in exchange for our salvation. Jesus is the word of God in the flesh, and has been with God the Father in Heaven for eternity. He got nothing from the ressurection that He didn't already have.

Nor did he lose anything. So it wasn't really a sacrifice at all.

Magus55 · 06-06-2003, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tenek
In other words, having your arm broken and healed is better than having it ripped off and never healed. Maybe if Jesus didn't come back, then His sacrifice would have been sufficient to save everybody, not just the sheep.

His sacrifice was quite sufficient to save everyone, but you have to accept. Jesus' sacrifice only made salvation possible, God isn't gonna force salvation on you if you don't want it. He doesn't want anyone in Heaven who doesn't care.

Magus55 · 06-06-2003, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Nor did he lose anything. So it wasn't really a sacrifice at all.

He lost his mortal life, and suffered the most excrutiating torture in human history ( yes more so than anyone else, not just because of the physical wounds, but the emotional and mental as well - so much stress that he sweat blood before the execution)

Let me ask you this Dave. Suppose your worst enemy was on his death bed. Would you endure crucifiction to save him from death, even if you'd come back to life with nothing you didn't already have before death?

Magus55 · 06-06-2003, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
But the main point of my post is that of the required sacrifice. Gods required sacrifices for a whole bunch of things, and today these sacrifices seem silly.
It gets even screwier when you consider that we are talking about the Jews.
They didn't have human sacrifice. The story of Isaac and Abraham is probably telling about their early history when human sacrifice was abandoned. They had animal sacrifice--and they ate the animals, only burning bits and pieces.
The animal sacrifices were to please God so that he would make things better in the here and now. The Jews have always been vague about an afterlife. Very few have ever thought that there was one.
The Jews atone for their own sins.
The Jews don't have original sin. The "fall of man" removed them from the Garden of Eden but that's it. Sin isn't passed on. Death didn't come into the world at the Fall. There is no such thing as a spiritual death.
The Messiah was supposed to free them from the Romans. Not leave them to have their country destroyed and everyone driven to the four-corners of the Earth.
To the Jews God is just God. No relatives, no ghosts�just a single God...

So what was the sacrifice for? There is nothing in the Jewish religion that would indicate the slightest need or desire for it.

Because the Jews followed the Old Convenant, and God put in place another one. The Old Covenant would still be in place if everyone could follow God's laws without breaking them - but God knew we would fail, and ignore His laws, so He came to Earth in the flesh, fulfilled all the laws Himself, died to pay the worlds debt, and was ressurected to be brought back to the right hand of God - completeing His life and purpose on Earth - and officially establishing the New Covenant.

Godless Dave · 06-06-2003, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
He lost his mortal life,

But he's God. He can make a new mortal life for himself any time he wants.

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
and suffered the most excrutiating torture in human history ( yes more so than anyone else, not just because of the physical wounds, but the emotional and mental as well - so much stress that he sweat blood before the execution)

What emotional and mental torture? At the news humans were capable of doing evil deeds, like executing a good man? That would hardly be a suprise, since he created them that way.

Humans have been torturing and killing each other for hundreds of thousands of years. A few hours being crucified is hardly the most excruciating torture in human history. The Inquisition put innocent people through worse tortures than that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Let me ask you this Dave. Suppose your worst enemy was on his death bed. Would you endure crucifiction to save him from death, even if you'd come back to life with nothing you didn't already have before death?

My worst enemy? Hell no. For a friend or an innocent I would do it though, even without the promise of coming back to life.

Godless Dave · 06-06-2003, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Because the Jews followed the Old Convenant, and God put in place another one. The Old Covenant would still be in place if everyone could follow God's laws without breaking them - but God knew we would fail, and ignore His laws, so He came to Earth in the flesh, fulfilled all the laws Himself, died to pay the worlds debt, and was ressurected to be brought back to the right hand of God - completeing His life and purpose on Earth - and officially establishing the New Covenant.

But why was that required to establish the New Covenant? How did dying pay a debt?

06-06-2003, 11:18 AM	#11
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	I'm not dead anymore...I feel better But the main point of my post is that of the required sacrifice. Gods required sacrifices for a whole bunch of things, and today these sacrifices seem silly. It gets even screwier when you consider that we are talking about the Jews. They didn't have human sacrifice. The story of Isaac and Abraham is probably telling about their early history when human sacrifice was abandoned. They had animal sacrifice--and they ate the animals, only burning bits and pieces. The animal sacrifices were to please God so that he would make things better in the here and now. The Jews have always been vague about an afterlife. Very few have ever thought that there was one. The Jews atone for their own sins. The Jews don't have original sin. The "fall of man" removed them from the Garden of Eden but that's it. Sin isn't passed on. Death didn't come into the world at the Fall. There is no such thing as a spiritual death. The Messiah was supposed to free them from the Romans. Not leave them to have their country destroyed and everyone driven to the four-corners of the Earth. To the Jews God is just God. No relatives, no ghosts�just a single God... So what was the sacrifice for? There is nothing in the Jewish religion that would indicate the slightest need or desire for it.

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06-06-2003, 11:42 AM	#13
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Jesus still had holes in his hands and feet, and he still had a wound in his side. If that wasn't his body, who's was it? But remember he was also portrayed as magically appearing in diverse places and walking through closed doors...

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