Jimmy Higgins

From the ancient days, animals were slaughtered, heck people were slaughtered in order to appease the gods. In order to make them happy, they killed stuff.

In the Middle East, monotheism sprouted and this custom of sacrificing animals began its long process of being phased out. Sacrificing then became a custom of making up for previous errors and sins.

I think today we exist in a world where animal and human sacrificing is a joke, however, when christians look at the crucifixion, they see it as very important. They feel that Christ died on the cross for our sins. In other words, their god required a payment for our fallen state, just as god required payments of rules being broken in Numbers and Leviticus. But this idea that a sacrifice being needed is very very ancient. It goes back to well before Hebrews ever existed.

This being established, is the crucifixion nothing more than an ancient custom hitting some sort of spiritual climax, and in all senses muting any legitimacy of the sacrifice? It almost sounds as if the disciples needed to come up with a reason why Christ died, the Messiah wasn't supposed to die! They used the ancient custom of sacrifice in its greatest form to cover it up.

butswana

What bugs me is that with a sacrifice, some thing is suppossed to be lost. What was lost? God knew that Jesus wasn't going to REALLY be dead. He gave his only son. Bullshit. He didn't give any thing. It's just a big holy hustle.

Jimmy Higgins

Well I kinda saw a new light into this. I mean, who is responsible for man's sins? God is. He made man the way he is, so God is responsible, so God punishes himself, though I hardly see how big this makes God seeing he is only doing what he should be. But the Christians just put way too much between the dichotomy between Jesus and God. They say they are one, but then praise Jesus for being crucified when he knew all along it was going to happen and that he'd be back in heaven after it happened. I mean Earth is nice and all, but if I knew I'd be in heaven after being tortured for a single day, what the heck, I'd do it!

ManM

butswana,
If someone breaks their arm, they know it will not last. Eventually their arm will heal and all will be well. However, they have to experience the pain of the initial break. They have to spend months with a cast on. The fact that the arm returns to its original state does not change the fact that suffering took place. The resurrection of Jesus does not change the fact that he suffered and experienced death for our sakes.

ManM

Jimmy Higgins,
Your idea is really not new. Even within Christian circles, the idea that God killed Himself in order to appease Himself has been concidered silly. Do a google search on theories of atonement.

Taffer

That analogy's a bit skewed. Jesus did not just have his body restored to it's previous state (As would be the analogous case with a healed arm [And assuming that Jesus has a body in heaven, but that's beside the point]) , he's in heaven. AKA eternal bliss, the best place you can possibly be and ultimate joy.

If somebody offered to put cybernetic implants into my arm that allow me to shoot lasers out of my fingers, fly by means of a wrist jet and instantly produce doughnuts out of my elbow, but they'd have to first break my arm to do it, I'd most certainly accept. And I don't think anybody would claim it was a selfless act even if I saved a couple million souls in the process.

Jimmy Higgins

But the main point of my post is that of the required sacrifice. Gods required sacrifices for a whole bunch of things, and today these sacrifices seem silly. But for some reason god requiring a sacrfice for a worldwide atonement doesn't play the same way with Christians. Sacrificing people and animals is an immature practice by an immature culture. No self-respecting religion does it today. Yet somehow, its respected for an event back then? I think that God "requiring" a sacrifice for something is just symbolic of how made up the whole thing is.

MortalWombat

What kind of doughnuts? Because if they're Krispy Kremes, then sign me up too. Oh, and the laser and wrist jet thingies would be OK too, I guess.

Tenek

In other words, having your arm broken and healed is better than having it ripped off and never healed. Maybe if Jesus didn't come back, then His sacrifice would have been sufficient to save everybody, not just the sheep.

spacedOut

JH,

You have elequently described the major reason I de-converted from Christianity.

Any theology that requires worship of a god who supposedly sacrificed himself (but not really because he didn't stay dead) so that we might appear perfect in his presence IMO fails any test of enlightened logic.