Freethought & Rationalism Archive

monkey mind · 05-27-2003, 09:49 AM

I was wondering what you guys thought about this zen koan? Anyone here have any interpretations of it that can be verbalized? It's definately one of the funniest ones koans I've ever read but I can't for the life of me "get it".

Gutei's Finger
Whenever anyone asked him about Zen, the great master Gutei would quietly raise one finger into the air. A boy in the village began to imitate this behavior. Whenever he heard people talking about Gutei's teachings, he would interrupt the discussion and raise his finger. Gutei heard about the boy's mischief. When he saw him in the street, he seized him and cut off his finger. The boy cried and began to run off, but Gutei called out to him. When the boy turned to look, Gutei raised his finger into the air. At that moment the boy became enlightened.

Whispers · 05-28-2003, 01:05 AM

I think i sort of get it! difficult to describe though. enlightenment, a veichle, and dropping of the veichle...

victorialis · 05-28-2003, 04:26 AM

hail, monkey mind. If you think it's funny, you do get it.

That's the thing to think about next.

06-12-2003, 10:04 AM

well i suppose its kinda funny. Mutilating a child! Not to mention the modern reading of raising one finger.

i would say that at that moment the boy realised that he was no lesser without his finger and that the master was no greater with his enlightenment. Similarly for him.

monkey mind · 06-12-2003, 12:46 PM

It's too bad zen teachers aren't as crazy as they used to be.

Shadowy Man · 06-12-2003, 01:54 PM

If a moderator deletes this thread then you'll have your answer.

victorialis · 06-12-2003, 03:23 PM

Grizzly · 06-14-2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
If a moderator deletes this thread then you'll have your answer.

This thread is going nowhere!

seebs · 06-14-2003, 11:01 PM

I don't know how to articulate it, but I always thought the key point was that the master, raising his finger, was not doing the same thing that the boy was; the boy suddenly understood what he had been missing. The possibility of imitating the gesture had been a barrier to his understanding of its meaning.

phaedrus · 06-16-2003, 04:23 AM

The end of the story is missing

From Gateless Gate :
Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a question about Zen. A boy attendant began to imitate him in this way. When anyone asked the boy what his master had preached about, the boy would raise his finger.
Gutei heard about the boy's mischief. He seized him and cut off his finger. The boy cried and ran away. Gutei called and stopped him. When the boy turned his head to Gutei, Gutei raised up his own finger. In that instant the boy was enlightened.

When Gutei was about to pass from this world he gathered his monks around him. `I attained my finger-Zen,' he said, `from my teacher Tenryu, and in my whole life I could not exhaust it.' Then he passed away.

Quote:

Mumon's comment: Enlightenment, which Gutei and the boy attained, has nothing to do with a finger. If anyone clings to a finger, Tenyru will be so disappointed that he will annihilate Gutei, the boy and the clinger all together.

Gutei made a fool of old Tenryu,

With the sharp blade he did simply harm the boy.

That's nothing compared to the Mountain Spirit when he raised his hand

And split Kasan (the great mountain) in two.

.

05-27-2003, 09:49 AM	#1
monkey mind Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: canada Posts: 140	zen koan; gutei's finger I was wondering what you guys thought about this zen koan? Anyone here have any interpretations of it that can be verbalized? It's definately one of the funniest ones koans I've ever read but I can't for the life of me "get it". Gutei's Finger Whenever anyone asked him about Zen, the great master Gutei would quietly raise one finger into the air. A boy in the village began to imitate this behavior. Whenever he heard people talking about Gutei's teachings, he would interrupt the discussion and raise his finger. Gutei heard about the boy's mischief. When he saw him in the street, he seized him and cut off his finger. The boy cried and began to run off, but Gutei called out to him. When the boy turned to look, Gutei raised his finger into the air. At that moment the boy became enlightened.

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05-28-2003, 01:05 AM	#2
Whispers Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Drawing Closer to God inch by inch... Posts: 179	I think i sort of get it! difficult to describe though. enlightenment, a veichle, and dropping of the veichle...

05-28-2003, 04:26 AM	#3
victorialis Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Midlands, UK Posts: 195	hail, monkey mind. If you think it's funny, you do get it. That's the thing to think about next.

06-12-2003, 10:04 AM	#4
leyline Guest Posts: n/a	well i suppose its kinda funny. Mutilating a child! Not to mention the modern reading of raising one finger. i would say that at that moment the boy realised that he was no lesser without his finger and that the master was no greater with his enlightenment. Similarly for him.

06-12-2003, 12:46 PM	#5
monkey mind Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: canada Posts: 140	It's too bad zen teachers aren't as crazy as they used to be.

06-12-2003, 01:54 PM	#6
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	If a moderator deletes this thread then you'll have your answer.

06-12-2003, 03:23 PM	#7
victorialis Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Midlands, UK Posts: 195

06-14-2003, 11:01 PM	#9
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	I don't know how to articulate it, but I always thought the key point was that the master, raising his finger, was not doing the same thing that the boy was; the boy suddenly understood what he had been missing. The possibility of imitating the gesture had been a barrier to his understanding of its meaning.

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