Nowhere357

Ah, thought that might be it. Read on...

In the context of this thread, yes I see them as synonymous.

Be careful here, because I've already said that the options presented to us by our minds ARE (or can be seen as) deterministic. And I've also said that our ability to exercise will is a property which deterministically arises from mind.

We have the ability to alter the flow of thoughts through our heads. Everything is natural and deterministic, yet nevertheless the results of a willful decision can not be known UNTIL the decision is made.

Guilty. I blame those slippery words.

free will
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

We agree with 1. I also agree with 2. The results of our willful decisions are not known ahead of time.

Timeline. In what way are they NOT mutually exclusive?

I don't see the distinction. If god could give us fake "voluntary choice", then god could give us fake "free will", so both definitions have the same problem.

Anyway, the first definition is no fun to defend. Let's go with the second.

free will: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

Now, "not determined by prior causes" is the problem, of course. I interpret it to mean "not predetermined" - the specific results of the decision can not be known until the decision is made.

Assume dropping a die is a random event. Now, if I drop a die and it comes up '6', tell me please if that result was predetermined? This may help me understand your view.

I would say no - the result of a dropped die is not predetermined. It is random. Nevertheless a dropped die behaves deterministically.

Classic physical theory is a subset of quantum theory. The first is well understood and very predictable. The second is not, and is not.

Classic theory leads directly to a "clockwork" reality which of course denies will. Quantum theory does not lead directly to a clockwork universe, and many people including top physicists have noted the similarities between the qualities of the mind, and the qualities of subatomic reality.

Which proves nothing, of course, except that the mystery of life and mind is far from resolved. And that if a valid theory of mind is to be found, it will surely involve quantum physics.

Kip

Dictionary.com

Predetermine: To determine, decide, or establish in advance

Predict: To state, tell about, or make known in advance, especially on the basis of special knowledge

I think that you are using the word "predetermined" when you mean predictable. The two are not the same. Your example with the role of dice shows that we agree about content but not semantics. The dice is unpredictable but is predetermined. If a super intelligent observer knew all of the countless relevant details (momentum, angle, friction, length to the floor, distance travelled, and so on) he could, in theory, predict the outcome of the dice toss, even though we mere humans cannot.

There is no "fake" "voluntary choice" or "free will". These are terms that I have precisely defined. You either have them or you do not. Either you feel the sensation of willing or voluntarily choosing an action (now matter how this came to be), or you do not. Either you control your actions without being constrained by antecedent causes or you do not. You can surely have a "manipulated" voluntary choice, in the sense that a brain surgeon can manipulate your brain to voluntary choose something you would have not have done otherwise, but the choice is nonetheless voluntary and willful, and not "fake". And I do not understand how God could "fake" free will. We either have these properties or we do not.

Why does a "clockwork" reality exclude will? Again, you are assuming that predetermined and willful are mutually exclusive but you have yet to show this must be so.

I can surely conceive of a deterministic being (for example an android or a human) experiencing the sensation of will, and you have provided no argument to the contrary.

Nowhere357

The experiment asked for an assumption, which you didn't grant. Now I'm heading back to the warm and fuzzy quantum world.

Current quantum theory does not claim that we can predict with certainty the outcome of a random quantum event. The reverse is true: in theory we cannot so predict. Quantum randomness is indeterminate.

So because you broke the experiment, I will grant the dice roll is predetermined (although in fact quantum randomness may be involved in the complete understanding of air currents, for example, so the dice roll may not be perfectly predictable, after all).

Now I'll ask if a random quantum event - partical decay - is predetermined. If you claim it is, you'll need to provide support.

Timeline. One event - the point where the decision is made - occurs at one point in time. In cannot, by definition, happen both before the event (predetermined) and during the event (willful choosing).

So it has been shown that the terms are mutually exclusive, and the idea that a clockwork universe denies free will is sound.

Note however that will is more than a passive sensation - it is an action we perform, concentrating and focusing our mental awareness. Will is an ability which causes changes in the world - it's even called willpower!

Will is not the awareness of choices being made - it is the making of the choices. It happens in the now. Predetermination obviously does not. Free will and predetermination are mutually exclusive.

Kip

If you grant that the dice is predetermined, will you also grant that human behavior is determined, and therefore that the "not determined by prior causes" clause of the definition is not satisfied, so that human beings do not have free will?

To answer your question, particle decay is not predetermined.

This argument depends upon the ambiguity of the word "decision". Does a decision refer to the mental sensation of will and "deciding" that accompanies the action? Or does the "decision" refer to the "decision" (even if there was no conscious "decider" or even other choices) of the laws of physics, initial conditions, and quantum randomness which determined that eventual action? Depending whether or not you emphasize will or determination, either event can be the "decision" but surely, as you say, not both. I would think that ordinary usage suggests the latter, "willful" emphasis is more appropriate even if that choice does not do any real "determining".

Whether or not will or willpower "is more than a passive sensation", in more than name, is precisely the question.

Nowhere357

We need to back up a step here.

Compare these:
Not determined by prior causes.
Predetermined.

As we're defining them, I agree that human behavior is determined by prior causes.
I disagree that human behavior is predetermined.

My fault for the confusion, which is why I did say I interpret it to mean "not predetermined".

So I agree our behavior is determined. I disagree that it's predetermined.

Can you agree, then, that something as complicated as air currents may involve quantum indetermancy? That is, a dropped die may actually have an indeterminate result?

The "the mental sensation of will and "deciding" that accompanies the action".

Well, we are in this thread, after all.

I think most people would agree that they make decisions.

We have instincts and impulses. We can resist these urges. "Resistance" here is the application of will "power".

I think there's no question that we can resist urges.

Kip

This will be my last post.

The two are synonymous. Any dictionary will tell you so and I am frustrated that you would hide behind such an ad hoc distinction.

Of course. I am not arguing for determinism in this thread. I am arguing that, to the extent that human behavior is not random, human behavior is determined by prior causes, in other words that we do not possess free will. The random, nano scale phenomena you hide behind will not help you escape this problem.

Nowhere357

You have exercised your will to reach this conclusion, effectively disproving your entire premise.

Free will and determinism are not in opposition, and free will is alive and well.