GeoTheo

For the most part you have it right. I think my morality developed as a kind of intuition. That is what I think a conscience is; a type of intuitive knowledge. I didn't really think of Christianity as a niche though. I thought of it in more Universal terms. I felt that they must be right since they seem to be in line with what I percieve to be true in my conscience. I also would like to say that I didn't always follow my conscience. For example I became a heavy drinker and sexually active and violent. I felt that I was doing wrong but at the same time a part of me wanted to do those things. Christianity seemed to offer the best explanation for this phenomena.

GeoTheo

Actually, No I no longer do. It was not until after I converted to Christianity that I had justification for believing that inter-racial dating was OK, though. Many people seem to think there is a lot of racial bigotry within conservative Christianity. I think perhaps that may be more of a regional thing. It has definately not my experience in the North East anyway.
I think this conviction of mine might be related to aesthetics in some sense. It looked out of place to me. Kind of like men dating taller women or women who were older than themselves seemed off somehow. But I can tell you this was not part of my upbringing. My Mother dated a black man and actually had him live with us for four years. We became very close friends. So I accepted him and hoped they would get married. He did have some biracial kids from a previous marriage that did seem to have some identity problems from being bi-racial, however, so even though I really liked this guy I still wondered if it was really right.
Interestingly he was an atheist and later became a born again Christian, soon before he and my mother broke up.

Starboy

GeoTheo

Please do not assume that all atheists are ex-religious. I have been an atheist all my life. It is only in the last decade that I have come to dislike Christians so. I came by it over the course of a lifetime of harassment by Christians. To many Christians, their religion is a “club of righteousness”, using both meanings of the word club.

The sad thing about all this is that people really do need guidance on how to live in harmony; unfortunately any system of belief from two thousand years ago is not going to be applicable to this time and place. Too much has happened and too much has been learned to take many of the ideas and beliefs of Christianity seriously.

Starboy

Perchance

Hi GeoTheo,

I'm interested (and curious) when you say, for example, that you think your impulses to do certain things against your conscience have a religious or supernatural explanation. Do the explanations of, say, psychology or cultural norms fall short for you? Have you experienced things that they can't explain?

Another example, I suppose, would be the biracial children of the man your mother dated. I would tend to think that they had problems with a biracial identity because of the culture around them. Americans seem to like to assign things to categories, and one of the biggest categories in America is race. So people who cross the boundaries make others uncomfortable, and become easy to stigmatize.

Would you agree with this, or would you think that they had problems because of something to do with religion? Perhaps sinfulness? (Sorry if this isn't making sense; I wasn't raised Christian, either, and am trying to use terminology I am unfamiliar with).

-Perchance.

Jamie_L

I'm not sure that you have a good experience base to make a judgement about the animosity of atheists in general towards Christians. If your only exposure is via the internet, you have to take that exposure with a healthy dose of salt. The internet is largely a place for people to mouth off anonymously. Those of us doing that mouthing off aren't necessarily a good cross-section of society at large, and our internet behavior may not be indicative of the types of people we are in real life.

Well, conscience is a thing that is built through years of conditioning starting at a young age. It certainly isn't something that changes overnight.

Really? Do you really think your moral code is vastly different from that of most atheists? I would guess that most of the infidels here think murder is wrong, torture is wrong, rape is wrong, theft is wrong, bullying is wrong, abandoning children is wrong, among other things. I would guess you feel the same. It seems like disagreements probably only occur in areas that even Christians disagree on (like sexuality) and moral issues that directly involve belief (like taking the Lord's name in vain, etc.)

What makes you believe there is so much difference between your sense of right and wrong and ours?

That's a false dichotomy. At least one other choice is: infidels have a different conscience. Even if we do have a different morality, which I question, it doesn't mean we go against our conscience. You are making an unfounded assumption here that your conscience is the baseline for everyone else's.

Nor do you have any reason to believe this principle does operate this way in others.

Only insomuch as your conscience tells you to worship God. Beyond that, as I have said, you could behave in total keeping with your conscience and be an atheist. You don't have to run around killing babies to join the club.

Well, what does that really tell you about other people? Nothing. All it tells you is that YOU appear to be different. Doesn't it seem a little arrogant to believe that this indicates an error on the part of others?

I happen to think that I'm a little different than mainstream humanity. I have little instinct to ask "big" questions like "Why are we here?" and "What is the meaning of life?" The lack of this need has allowed me to more easily avoid indoctrination into religion, however, I would not consider this "difference" in and of itself to be proof that atheism is a logical choice.

Jamie

Celsus

GeoTheo,

I hate to break this to you (actually I don't, cue: evil laughter), but you can't be saved anymore, now that you've experimented with apostasy.

Hebrews 6:4-6

If you can't save yourself, at least tell your Christian friends that they can yet save themselves, but they'll have to be very careful to walk the straight and narrow. In the meantime, you're welcome to join us in our hedonistic and sinful pursuits, but only if you behave (badly).

Albion

Yes, I agree. Back when most of the Christians I encountered were mainstream Church of England, I had a lot of respect for Christianity despite having been brought up in a stridently atheist household. Then I started coming across fundamentalists, including my maternal grandmother, and realised why my mother was so stridently atheist! Now I really have to force myself to remember that not all Christians are intolerant bigots who revel in ignorance and prejudice - it's just that they're the ones with the highest profiles.

GeoTheo

I think the difference betwen you and Starboy is that you don't seem to have allowed your experiences to cause bitterness. I think it is pretty safe to say Starboy overflows with bitterness towards Christianity at times.
I also think having an Christian ex-wife may play a big part.

Plebe

How rightly said by others here on the list, one does not "experiment with atheism"/agnosticism one concludes it.

Your assumption that unbelievers are "anti-Christian" is no doubt due to some confusion since what you construe as "anti-Christian" is really a stance in favor of facts and knowledge on the part of those of us who have taken the time to explore various groups of religions and religious thought. Many, like Thomas Jefferson in concluding the miracle stories and fallacious arguments of the bible are just so much bunkum acknowledge that one can be moral and live the "golden rule" without belief in any pantheon of gods, godmen, angels or devils which support such heinous crimes as slavery and a valuation of women as less than that of men. Many of us are familiar with the fact that very few Christians have bothered to read their bibles straight on through from page to page like a normal book to see what it really says and so we know people remain shackled to belief systems that are not logical in light of knowledge that is easily found by the true seeker!

I think you might want to read what The Jovial Atheist has to say at <a href="http://www.jovialatheist.com" target="_blank">http://www.jovialatheist.com</a> or maybe the Ethical Atheist at <a href="http://www.ethicalatheist.com" target="_blank">http://www.ethicalatheist.com</a> as well as some of the materials here and continue with your "experiment" because knowledge and facts do much to displace fantasy and unreason.

Here is a partial listing of
non-tract materials I have stored on disk ready for
printout for proselytizers/[what I call "Malarkey
Masters"] visiting my door which
demonstrate quite well the flaws of the Bible and any apologetics:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/phineasbg2/wyd.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/phineasbg2/wyd.html</a> Parody on
a Jack Chick tract popular with proselytizers.

<a href="http://www.jhuger.com/pamphlets.mv" target="_blank">http://www.jhuger.com/pamphlets.mv</a>

<a href="http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/" target="_blank">http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/</a>

A group for scholarly study:
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries/" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries/</a>

<a href="http://www.atheists.org/church/twelve.html" target="_blank">http://www.atheists.org/church/twelve.html</a>

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby.htm" target="_blank">http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby.htm</a> What a
real Jew sees and knows about Christianity when they
read the “New Testament.”

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/forgery_in_christianity/index.shtml</a>
Forgery in Christianity a history.

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/m_m_mangasarian/truth_about_jesus.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/m_m_mangasarian/truth_about_jesus.html</a>
[This is great, gives a 'Parable' comparing Apollos to
Christ then following the parable, a detailed
discussion about Christianity.]

<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/xtianity/index.html" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/xtianity/index.html</a>
Evolution vs. Creationism

<a href="http://philosophy.wisc.edu/forster/220/default.htm" target="_blank">http://philosophy.wisc.edu/forster/220/default.htm</a>

Resurrection debate:

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/barker_horner.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/barker_horner.html</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jesus_resurrection/chap4.html" target="_blank">http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jesus_resurrection/chap4.html</a>

Starboy

GeoTheo,

You can call it bitterness if you wish, but consider the possibility that my eyes have been opened even wider. Christianity is not only superstition, but it is dangerous and harmful. Pointing to a few good Christians as justification for believing is like saying that the Nazis were not all bad because they pulled post war Germany out of a terrible depression. Anything that requires its followers to accept fantasy and deceits at the get go can only go down hill from there.

Starboy