Freethought & Rationalism Archive

never been there · 03-10-2002, 06:51 PM

I've been thinking that if ever trapped by a proselytizing Xian I would tell them that no, I simply don't believe in a creator, but if I came to change my mind, I wouldn't become a Xian, but something more respectable like a Sikh. You know, equality of women, respecting others' beliefs, etc.

Once that sinks in, I would tell them "The Christian concept of god is like a human being, but greater. The Sikh concept of god is like the universe, but greater." Do those of you in the know think that to be reasonably accurate?

In Canada, some still grumble about Sikhs being allowed to choose to wear the turban with the RCMP or army uniform. I say the British figured out a century ago that whatever gets Sikhs on YOUR side in a fight is well worth it.

Radcliffe Emerson · 03-11-2002, 08:05 AM

I agree that all religions were new at some point, so why any concern about more recent ones?
And to Sikh, don't worry, I actually think of UU's as more a community of different believers myself. That's why I really like it. We're all free to follow our own way and discuss it openly, noone passes judgement on anyone.

One of the guys I talked to a couple of weeks ago attended (I believe) a Sikh sunrise service?
I'm not sure if that's right or not, but he and his family went to one and found it very intriguing.

Radcliffe Emerson · 03-11-2002, 08:11 AM

"Essentially the main argument against Sikhism here is that we won't believe in it until we get actual evidence proving it's concepts regarding the existence of God to be true, and then more showing Sikhism has the right way to interpret and worship that God. But you won't find us attacking Sikhism in some sort of blind fury."

There isn't any evidence to prove there's a God at all in any religion though.

[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: askeptic ]</p>

emotional · 03-11-2002, 10:22 AM

It all depends on political power. Christianity and Islam are a favoured target of attack by infidels because they have great political power. If Sikhism or Baha'ism should so grow politically as to meddle in unbelievers' lives, they'll be furiously attacked too.

Clarify the necessity and primacy of Secular Law: that if a religion decrees practices which are contrary to Secular Law (such as forbidding changing beliefs, prohibition of women to testify in courts of law), it shall never be permitted of them; much as they may say, "it is the Word of God", the secularists must never listen to them. Was not the 9/11 WTC attack an act of worshipping God, in the minds of those who performed it? And would not any prohibition of it be an abridgement of religious freedom? Yes, verily, it would be an abridgement of religious freedom: no-one is allowed to worship God by harming other people. Secular Law is Sovereign and Lord of all politics, and religion shall have no part in politics. Amen.

Sakpo · 03-12-2002, 12:22 AM

Quote:

askeptic:

There isn't any evidence to prove there's a God at all in any religion though.

Read the quote from me again.

Quote:

I, Sakpo :

believe in it until we get actual evidence proving it's concepts regarding the existence of God to be true, and then more showing Sikhism has the right way to interpret and worship that God

I'm saying there is no proof of God for any religion, but that even if there were we would need further proof that Sikhism had the right way to worship nailed down. The beggining deals with the lack of proof of any religions god, the 2nd bit is specific to Sikhism.

voltaire321 · 03-12-2002, 10:10 AM

Ok having read some of the links posted and gotten a basic background in what Sihkism is....

The teachings of Sihkism seem to be fairly rational compared to some religions. I like the idea that everyone is equal. Also refreshing is the concept that non-sihks aren't eternally damned.

BUT...

It's very hard for me to approve of any religion that causes death in it's name. Assasinating people over whether they eat at tables? What the hell is that about? Basically it seems that no matter how well meaning a religion is there are plenty of fanatics that kill in the name of their religion.

It all boils down to this: As an atheist I believe that no god exists. Therefor I must believe that all religions are false, as their "god" is mythical. I can accept people believing in a mythical god, whatever floats their boat. The problem I have is that invariably people hurt and kill in the name of a being that doesn't exist. Show me a religion where no member of that religion has ever killed because of his beliefs and I will show you a religion that I don't have a problem with. The only one I can think of that even comes close is Buddhism (and I may be naive about that too.)

Radcliffe Emerson · 03-12-2002, 10:11 AM

Good point, especially if the original intent is just convert people to that belief.
I think conversion is wrong. Let everyone do their own thing, noone can say who's correct.
The different beliefs on the planet may all have something right. I personally believe they all evolved as humankind trying to understand the natural world around them.
I think there's something to be said for the pieces of them that call people to love and understand each other, I just wish more people would concentrate on that and not the "You're wrong and going to hell" parts.

MadMordigan · 03-18-2002, 02:28 PM

I say the British figured out a century ago that whatever gets Sikhs on YOUR side in a fight is well worth it.

Exactly. Think Worf. He won't cover your back if you are threatened, he'll be too busy busting the other guy's head.

One of the great things about Vancouver is that we have a very vibrant sikh community. The religious and cultural festivals I have participated in were much lighter and enjoyable than similar xian ceremonies. The symbolism of the kirpan is one I have great respect for. All in all, my opinion of sikhism is a good one.

never been there · 03-18-2002, 03:40 PM

E.g. Mad Morgan's previous provincial premier, Ujjal Dosanjh, who spoke out publicly against fundamentalism as being inconsistent with Sikh beliefs.

He took a baseball bat in the head for that. On release from hospital he repeated his statements.

John Hancock · 03-18-2002, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ohwilleke:
<strong>I am certainly skeptical about a new religion popping onto the scene in recent history.</strong>

I take exception pertaining to new. Two young ladies from a Navajo Group whose heritage made that of '
"JESUS CRAWL in the Mud" left me in the sweat lodge, OF A Wise Crow of one true wrinkled mother with earthen and sky knowledge...later I ate the buds of knowledge my new earth mother provided.

I blended with the wind, grass, and stream below.
Birds sung me to a peace where my revolvers were never again the essential of my manhood.

What's old what's new? Do you know?

Martin

birds

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03-10-2002, 06:51 PM	#31
never been there Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB Posts: 2,144	I've been thinking that if ever trapped by a proselytizing Xian I would tell them that no, I simply don't believe in a creator, but if I came to change my mind, I wouldn't become a Xian, but something more respectable like a Sikh. You know, equality of women, respecting others' beliefs, etc. Once that sinks in, I would tell them "The Christian concept of god is like a human being, but greater. The Sikh concept of god is like the universe, but greater." Do those of you in the know think that to be reasonably accurate? In Canada, some still grumble about Sikhs being allowed to choose to wear the turban with the RCMP or army uniform. I say the British figured out a century ago that whatever gets Sikhs on YOUR side in a fight is well worth it.

03-11-2002, 08:05 AM	#32
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	I agree that all religions were new at some point, so why any concern about more recent ones? And to Sikh, don't worry, I actually think of UU's as more a community of different believers myself. That's why I really like it. We're all free to follow our own way and discuss it openly, noone passes judgement on anyone. One of the guys I talked to a couple of weeks ago attended (I believe) a Sikh sunrise service? I'm not sure if that's right or not, but he and his family went to one and found it very intriguing.

03-11-2002, 08:11 AM	#33
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	"Essentially the main argument against Sikhism here is that we won't believe in it until we get actual evidence proving it's concepts regarding the existence of God to be true, and then more showing Sikhism has the right way to interpret and worship that God. But you won't find us attacking Sikhism in some sort of blind fury." There isn't any evidence to prove there's a God at all in any religion though. [ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: askeptic ]</p>

03-11-2002, 10:22 AM	#34
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	It all depends on political power. Christianity and Islam are a favoured target of attack by infidels because they have great political power. If Sikhism or Baha'ism should so grow politically as to meddle in unbelievers' lives, they'll be furiously attacked too. Clarify the necessity and primacy of Secular Law: that if a religion decrees practices which are contrary to Secular Law (such as forbidding changing beliefs, prohibition of women to testify in courts of law), it shall never be permitted of them; much as they may say, "it is the Word of God", the secularists must never listen to them. Was not the 9/11 WTC attack an act of worshipping God, in the minds of those who performed it? And would not any prohibition of it be an abridgement of religious freedom? Yes, verily, it would be an abridgement of religious freedom: no-one is allowed to worship God by harming other people. Secular Law is Sovereign and Lord of all politics, and religion shall have no part in politics. Amen.

03-12-2002, 10:10 AM	#36
voltaire321 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 423	Ok having read some of the links posted and gotten a basic background in what Sihkism is.... The teachings of Sihkism seem to be fairly rational compared to some religions. I like the idea that everyone is equal. Also refreshing is the concept that non-sihks aren't eternally damned. BUT... It's very hard for me to approve of any religion that causes death in it's name. Assasinating people over whether they eat at tables? What the hell is that about? Basically it seems that no matter how well meaning a religion is there are plenty of fanatics that kill in the name of their religion. It all boils down to this: As an atheist I believe that no god exists. Therefor I must believe that all religions are false, as their "god" is mythical. I can accept people believing in a mythical god, whatever floats their boat. The problem I have is that invariably people hurt and kill in the name of a being that doesn't exist. Show me a religion where no member of that religion has ever killed because of his beliefs and I will show you a religion that I don't have a problem with. The only one I can think of that even comes close is Buddhism (and I may be naive about that too.)

03-12-2002, 10:11 AM	#37
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Good point, especially if the original intent is just convert people to that belief. I think conversion is wrong. Let everyone do their own thing, noone can say who's correct. The different beliefs on the planet may all have something right. I personally believe they all evolved as humankind trying to understand the natural world around them. I think there's something to be said for the pieces of them that call people to love and understand each other, I just wish more people would concentrate on that and not the "You're wrong and going to hell" parts.

03-18-2002, 02:28 PM	#38
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	I say the British figured out a century ago that whatever gets Sikhs on YOUR side in a fight is well worth it. Exactly. Think Worf. He won't cover your back if you are threatened, he'll be too busy busting the other guy's head. One of the great things about Vancouver is that we have a very vibrant sikh community. The religious and cultural festivals I have participated in were much lighter and enjoyable than similar xian ceremonies. The symbolism of the kirpan is one I have great respect for. All in all, my opinion of sikhism is a good one.

03-18-2002, 03:40 PM	#39
never been there Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB Posts: 2,144	E.g. Mad Morgan's previous provincial premier, Ujjal Dosanjh, who spoke out publicly against fundamentalism as being inconsistent with Sikh beliefs. He took a baseball bat in the head for that. On release from hospital he repeated his statements.

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