Kosh

Thank you, Evangilion and Esther, for demonstrating to us that Christians can't even agree among themselves on the key dogmas....

Magus55

If we conclude Evangelion is even Christian. The prime aspect of Christianity, that makes a Christian, a Christian - is belief in Jesus' divinity - which Evangelion doesn't.

Doctor X

Unless . . . of course . . . you are one of the original followers. . . .

--J.D.

Secular Pinoy

Magus,

For a supposed Messianic Jew, you seem all too willing to ditch Judaic monotheism for the trinitarian heresy of christians. Care to show where in the Tanakh says that the Messiah is supposed to be divine, and even equal to Yahweh.

EstherRose

Messianic prophecies from Isaiah that illustrate the equal footing He has with God

Isaiah 9
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 11
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD

Javaman

EstherRose,
This second one seems an odd choice given you're trying to show an "equal footing." I see no way an equal would be in fear of himself. I don't quite follow.

Calzaer

I keep getting the idea that Esther doesn't actually read these things, she just copy/pastes them from somewhere else. Earlier she posted a couple of alleged "fulfilled messianic prophecies" that she obviously hadn't even looked at (like the one that said all kings would bow to him).

Evangelion

No I didn't. You want context? I'll give you context:

• Luke 24:25-27.
  Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
  Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

That is what they had failed to understand; the teaching of the suffering Christ. As demonstrated by their flight after his arrest, they did not understand that he must be crucified and rise the third day.

*snip*

Oops, wrong passage.

I meant this one:

• John 4:16-19.
  Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
  The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

Nonsense! The verse specifically tells us that he departed because they wanted to make him a king, and not because they hailed him as a prophet!

Greek scholar A. T. Robertson (himself a Christian) observes:

• The prophet that cometh (ho prophētēs ho erchomenos).
  There was a popular expectation about the prophet of Deu_18:15 as being the Messiah (Joh_1:21; Joh_11:27).
  
  The phrase is peculiar to John, but the idea is in Acts (Act_3:22; Act_7:37). The people are on the tiptoe of expectation and believe that Jesus is the political Messiah of Pharisaic hope.

He was indeed the Son of God; he was indeed much more than just a prophet. But he was most definitely a prophet. That is quite undeniable.

But he applies the statement directly to himself! He is a self-declared prophet!

Aha, standard Trinitarian proof texts...

Most Bible translations add “he” to the end of “I am” in this verse, recognising that implied meaning is “Unless you believe that I am the Messiah, you will die in your sins.” (The same is true of John 4:26.) You will also notice that the Jews made no attempt to stone him (a surprising show of self-restraint, if Jesus had spoken the Tetragrammaton!)

The Jews obviously did not interpret his words as a claim to deity – on the contrary, they merely ask “Who art thou?” This tells us that they knew he was claiming to be someone, but did not yet know whom he claimed to be.

And whom did he claim to be? See verse 28:

• John 8:28.
  Jesus therefore said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [ego eimi]."

Notice the context – “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [he.]” This ties in with John 4:26 and John 8:24 (see above.) It is another Messianic claim. The Jews do not take it as a claim to deity, nor do they see it as blasphemous. (Notice also the complete absence of stones!)

Adam Clarke’s Commentary confirms the point:

• John 8:28 – When ye have lifted up –
  When ye have crucified me, and thus filled up the measure of your iniquities, ye shall know that I am the Christ, by the signs that shall follow; and ye shall know that what I spoke is true, by the judgments that shall follow. To be lifted up, is a common mode of expression, among the Jewish writers, for to die, or to be killed.

There is no claim to deity here.

Why? It's not even the same expression. The Hebrew of Exodus 3:14 says "I will be" (not "I am"), while the LXX says "I am the one." By contrast, John 8:58 says "I am" (with "he" implied once again.) The reference is to Christ as Messiah - a role for which he was predestined since before Abraham.

We find a parallel in Hebrews 7:9-10 -

• And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
  For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Here, Levi "paid tithes" to Melchisedec, even while "he was yet in the loins of his father"! It is the language of predestination, not literal pre-existence. The same is true of John 8:58.

See also:

• Jeremiah 1:5.
  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

And:

• Luke 11:48-50.
  Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
  Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
  That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

I see no reference to Jesus here.

"God" (whether elohim or theos) is used throughout the Bible as a Jewish honorific. It is applied to God and His representatives. In Exodus 7 it is applied to Moses; in Psalm 45, it is even applied to a Jewish king. I would expect Jesus (as God's own Son and representative) to receive such an honour.

*snip*

Yes, because this is one of the privileges that God extended to him.

Thus:

• John 5:26-27.
  For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
  
  
• John 17:2.
  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

The Bible confirms that the Father is the source of this eternal life, while the Son is merely the agent through whom it is given.

Thus:

• John 17:3.
  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
  
  
• Romans 6:23.
  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
  
  
• Titus 1:2.
  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
  
  
• I John 5:11.
  And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
  

Notice that in every case, God is clearly delineated from Christ – not equated with him.

Irrelevant.

Um... that interpretation is flatly contradicted by Jesus himself:

• John 14:10.
  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
  
• John 17:8.
  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Thus we see that he deferred to the Father as the source of his doctrine - just as the prophets had done.

Indeed.

And with good reason, too.

Evangelion

Hey, that's old news!

Evangelion

Well, I am. Too bad for you.

What a load of cobblers!

Correct.