seebs

If you think that a core belief of a system is a "pathetic copout", you don't understand the system well.

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

Originally posted by Seebs:
"If you think that a core belief of a system is a "pathetic copout", you don't understand the system well."
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Is that a core belief, Seebs? Or a rather hackneyed escape clause designed to avoid tough questions? I'm not 100% certain that there's no God, anymore than I'm not 100% certain that there's a purple leprechaun living in my computer. Yet, I don't believe in either of them. You might not know my spiritual condition when I kick the bucket, but you can be pretty damn sure I won't be caovered by Jesus' "cloak of righteousness".

Simple, unassailable fact #1. All nonbelievers go to Hell, according to multiple passages in the Bible.

Simple, unassailable fact # 2. While you can't know with complete certainty wether someone has accepted Christ or not, you can know with near certainty. If I die while writing this, on the other hand, according to Orthodox Christianity, you can know that I'm on my way to the Lake of Fire.

Simple, unassailable fact #3. If you have no reason to believe your grandmother "repented", the default position is that she's getting cooked extra crispy in the furnace of Brimstone.

So, if some Christian tells me "well, I don't know if you're going to Hell, only God can make that decision, I simply respond.

"Well, I'm 100% certain in my mind that Christianity is false. Therefore, according to your Holy Book, you can be equally confident that I'm going to Hell!"

As for the rest of us, just go with what the Bible says {a real sticking point with Liberal Xstians, I know! }. Since only a tiny minority of folks are destined to be saved, the logical conclusion is that most folks around you, family, friends, total strangers, etc., are only "one heartbeat away from Hell."

Simple.

Just because you're not 100% sure as to the spiritual condition of every single human being, doesn't mean you can't expect that they'll be writhing in pain some day.

My assertion stands.

Respect,
HQB.

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

Originally posted by Seebs:
"I see your argument as pure sophistry; it attacks a straw man of what most Christians believe, although I'd guess that it works okay on fundamentalists."
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Most "Christians" are woefully ignorant about some of the nastie elements of their faith, some willfully, some not.
Wether 2 of them or 2 billion of them believe it, that's a fact.
If you base your Christianity on anything other than the Bible, you have, by definition, invented your own religion, therefore you should have no problem with anyone attacking Biblical Christianity, since it bears little or no resemblance to your faith.
Could God grant a second chance after death? Unlikely, since the Bible says repentance is available in this life only. But, let's grant that argument more merit than it deserves. Going by that logic, Jesus could just as easily say "sucker"! to all His Children, and inform them that they should have realized that He was stoned when He inspired the Bible before sending them to an eternity of substandard shwag marijuana joints.

Respect,
HQB

seebs

A core belief. The Bible is very clear on our lack of authority to judge or predict, and says that only God knows.

No, I can't. The Bible says I can't, and that only God knows. I can form a guess, but it might be a pretty bad guess.

There are many passages which can be interpreted that way, but which appear to contradict other passages. What, exactly, are you supposed to believe? You can get hundred-page debates on the question of what, exactly, you "must believe" to be saved. Several other passages suggest that nonbelievers are destroyed. Some passages suggest that "belief" means, not "belief" in the sense you and I normally use it, but a sincere desire for truth. Much debate ensues.

I don't believe you can know with near certainty, because I think a lot of people have not-accepted some construct of their own imagining, or that was pushed at them by some Bible-basher.

There's no "default position" in such a circumstance. Neither repentance nor unrepentance is a likely default. Furthermore, there are complicated questions of what constitutes "repentance".

No, I can't; I can only be confident that, if I were a pure literalist willing to disregard any passage I didn't understand, or which didn't conform to my existing expectations, I would probably think that.

I don't find your claims to certainty about every detail of Christian doctrine any more plausible than those of any other fundamentalist.

I don't believe in destiny, and I am not convinced about the tiny minority. The Bible supports my positions, too.

Hint: The book is full of stuff that's essentially contradictory. Interpretation is a fine art, and you're making what I would call a bad-faith effort; you've picked a conclusion and are ignoring anything that doesn't support it.

Yes, it does. To expect such a thing would be to pretend to knowledge I do not have.

seebs

True enough.

This is bullshit. Christianity predates the Bible. Christianity includes a number of traditions and writings outside the Bible. Furthermore, Christianity claims a personal relationship between each believer and God; thus, we have something very important which should trump our human efforts at interpreting the Bible.

Sure. So? People spend way too much time second-guessing the afterlife. You're alive now; do a good job of it, and have faith.

thebeave

Seebs, I see what you're saying, and I've spent the entire weekend trying to gather the evidence to convince you I haven't sinned. However, I must admit I am a little shaky on this whole sin thing. Please help me get a little background on this:

a) What actions on my part constitute a sin?
b) Who is the authority that says they are a sin?
c) During what time period in history is it a sin? That is, are there things now that are considered a sin, but weren't 5k years ago? Similarly, are there things that were sins 5k years ago, but aren't today? If so, who defines when they become sins or are no longer sins? Is this written down somewhere where I can read it? Is it possible that something that is sinful today, won't be sinful in 1000 years? Who is the authority that makes that decision and how does he relay his decision it to us? Worldwide e-mail?
d) Is it a sin if I do something that harms no one, and gives pleasure to myself? Like masturbation? Or homosexual sex with a consenting partner? Or sex with a partner who is on her period?

Are the following sins?

Masturbation?
Thinking about masturbation?
Thinking about how your married neighbor is hot and you'd like to "do her"?
Cannibalism, under extreme circumstances (e.g. Donner Party?)
Cannibalism, like Jeffery Dahmer.
Eating animals with cloven hooves?
Boiling a kyd goat in its mother's milk?
Wearing clothing made of two different materials?
Worshipping a god other than a Christian God?
Killing (in self defense)
Killing in the heat of passion or anger?
A baby pooping in his diapers?
Smoking marijuana for fun
Smoking marijuana for medicinal purposes
Saying "fuck you"
Saying "Jesus H. Christ!"

That should keep you busy for a while. I eagerly await your response.

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

Originally posted by Seebs:
" People spend way too much time second-guessing the afterlife. You're alive now; do a good job of it,......
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BRAVO! .:notworthy :notworthy

"and have faith"
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Oh well, 1 for 2 isn't bad.

"Come, bebe, y sea felis, pasobra manan nos ta muri"

"Come-se, bebe-se, e seja feliz, porque amanha nos morreremos".

"Chodowna, drinka, ay esa flezi, fodang manyang nus kidibuuka".

"Singanchi, mlo'ng'ktakyo, ua vava chtang'nyo, ksika gerutu mogya nay kehaksu".

HQB

{He-edita fodang gonu timpo-as mi jusa da naa nolo kwmanya fo spala}

seebs

Boy, you don't ask the easy questions.

I don't know the answers with any certainty, I'm afraid. Here's my answer:
a. The only "actions" that are sins are cases where the verb implies the sinful part of it. Murder, rape, for instance. Apart from that, sin is very complicated.
b. God.
c. It's not a question of time period, it's a question of how it affects you.
d. Not inherently, IMHO.

There's a whole section in the Bible on what's called "Christian liberty", which basically says that, if you're paying attention and allowing God to guide you, your conscience will guide you better than any set of rules ever written down. As an example, I know people for whom it would be a sin to listen to certain music, because it would make it hard for them to have a relationship with God. Me, I can listen to anything, and the worst it can do is generally bore me. Okay, _heresy_ actually annoys me a bit - but it's not a sin for me to hear it or think about it. I actually like _terrible lie_, because it's a beautiful song, and I frankly think more Christians should listen to it before they go off witnessing to atheists about the "joy" of belief.

Tragically, I can't really answer them with certainty. It seems to me that worshipping a God other than the Christian one is probably a bad idea, and certainly, by accepting Christianity, I've sort of signed up not to do it. The Dahmer-style cannibalism is probably sinful, I think, but for all I know it's just a mental illness, and implies no moral culpability at all. Dwelling too long on the hot neighbor seems likely sinful to me. Masturbation? Swearing? I hope not.

As to the others... I don't do most of 'em, but I think it's very clear that a great deal of sin is subjective, and personal, and thus I can't judge with any certainty. Romans 14 is probably the best starting point if you want to know what I'm talking about.

thebeave

Basically, you've made my point for me. You say I'm a sinner (as is everyone else apparantly) but you don't even know me or even know what constitutes a sin (or a sinner) yourself! If I were you, I would lay low on bleating the standard Christian dogma until you really understand what it is you are saying.

seebs

You seem to have made a mistake. So far as I can tell, sin is not really a deontological model of ethics. It's not specific verbs that are sinful; it's specific states of mind or approaches to things. And, within those, I can state with certainty that any living human who can use language is a sinner.

Hatred, contempt, malice, pride... Those are sins, and we are all guilty of them. I notice that you picked a list of things you figured you could attack me for calling "sinful" - but you forgot to ask what *is* sinful. Seems like you were a little careless, maybe? Not that I blame you; I am surrounded by people who are convinced that they can come up with a List of Forbidden Verbs, and never have to think about moral issues again.

I don't think I'm "bleating" anything. I have found that the "standard dogma" happens to consist of sets of words which are probably true, once you get past the naive interpretations and common mistakes.