Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ReasonableDoubt · 01-24-2003, 03:06 PM

I'm new to this forum- I'm not an atheist but find a lot of the arguments very intelligent and convincing. I have a question for the atheist/agnostic posters here- have you heard of a "new" idea in Christian theology involving the nature of God called openness? Basically, that God is not omniscient in the sense that it's classically been taught. That God cannot know the future b/c it is not here yet, etc. That humans possess free will, and that this takes care of the problem of evil.
I've been on a site of Greg Boyd's (one of the theologians behind this theory) and attempting to argue that this view is not accurate. I'm interested to see what an atheist reply is to this view of God's nature.
Thanks!

JCS · 01-24-2003, 03:43 PM

I am not familiar with that particular idea. Is there a website? I'm not sure the bible contains ciphers that allow for anything other than literal reading. Doesn't assigning new meaning to words or phrases pretty much change everything. Are these just efforts at re-cycling their deity belief to a level that allows for some intellectual comfort?

WWSD · 01-24-2003, 04:26 PM

Interesting theory. The problem with it, IMO, is that it totally discredits the entire idea of prophecy. If god doesn't know the future, how then does he relate the information about future events to his prophets? Or has he some limited prescience? Do his prophets somehow have insight that he himself lacks? That doesn't jibe well with the idea of a great powerful god.

Seems rather dubious to me.

And if god doesn't really know what the future holds, how then am I supposed to believe that he defeats Satan and his ministers at Meggido in the end times? If it's all up in the air, why shouldn't I join the ranks of the great army of the underworld and fight for them? What if Satan wins and tosses god into the fiery pits?

ReasonableDoubt · 01-24-2003, 05:07 PM

Here's the website: www.gregboyd.org

The site does address the issues of how do you have prophecies, etc.

Vorkosigan · 01-24-2003, 05:16 PM

Here's the page. It's the usual doubletalk:

http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=506

WWSD · 01-24-2003, 05:50 PM

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Quote:

Objection 1. The Open view undermines God�s omniscience | Dr. Boyd�s Response: I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God is absolutely all knowing. There is no difference in my understanding of God�s omniscience and that of any other orthodox theologian, but I hold that part of the reality which God perfectly knows consists of possibilities as well as actualities. The difference lies in our understanding of the nature of the future, not in our understanding of God�s omniscience.

OK, so god IS all knowing?
Maybe. maybe not...

Anyway, what is this supposed to mean? Is this like the tapestry of possibilities that Maud Dib sees when he takes the spice?

It still leaves the idea open that god knew all along that the possibility of my apostasy was existant. If he is indeed all powerful, as objection #2 goes on about, he could have done something about it.

It seems to me that god could have done things a little differently than he did in order to insure that I would not burn in his hell forever.

Quote:

3. The open view undermines out confidence in God�s ability to accomplish his purposes | I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God can and has guaranteed whatever he wants about the future, since he is omnipotent. I also affirm (because Scripture also teaches) that God created us with the capacity to love, and thus empowered us to decide some matters for ourselves. Within the parameters set by the Creator, parameters which guarantee whatever God wants to guarantee about the future, humans have some degree of self-determination. This means that concerning the fate of particular individuals things may not turn out as God desires. If we deny this, we must accept that God actually desires some people to go to hell. Scripture denies this (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9).

god empowered us to take action on our own withing his preset parameters. Why did he not change the parameters, since he is all powerful, to insure that I would not go to his hell?
He created those parameters, he could have tweaked them in the beginning to change the outcome for the better of all humanity rather than what is currently the case.

Quote:

5. The open view undermines the power of prayer | I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that petitionary prayer is our most powerful tool in bringing about the Father�s will �on earth as it is in heaven.� Indeed, because my view allows for the future to be somewhat open, I believe it makes the best sense out of the urgency and efficaciousness which Scripture attaches to prayer.

The fact that prayer fails 99.999999% of the time undermines the power of prayer. The fact that a man can pray to recover his lost wallet, and have the wallet returned to him, while another man can pray for his wife's cancer to be cured, only to lose her, is affirmation that prayer is powerless.

Quote:

6. The open view cannot account for biblical prophecy | I affirm (because Scripture teaches) that God can and does determine and predict the future whenever it suits his sovereign purposes to do so. But I deny that this logically entails, or that Scripture teaches, that the future is exhaustively determined. God is wise enough to be able to achieve his purposes while allowing his creatures a significant degree of freedom.

So which prophecy is right and which is wrong? What about the demonstrably false prophecies of the bible? Did god change his mind along the way? Why should I trust this god who cahnges his mind and confuses his subjects?

Furthermore, if god can see the future as a series of possibilities, he can indeed see ALL of the possibilities and therefore he knows everything about each and every possible future that can possibly happen! Therefore the future, if god is all knowing as objection #1 states, IS EXHAUSTIVELY DETERMINED!

Quote:

7. The open view is incoherent | Some argue that it is logically impossible for God to guarantee aspects of the future without controlling everything about the future. ... Everything in life, from our personal experience down to the quantum particles, points to the truth that predictable stability does not rule out an element of unpredictably.

It IS incoherent. This makes no sense.
This objection is contradictory to objection #2. If god is all powerful, then he can indeed changethe future to suit his needs. He can indeed take away all unpredictability.

This objection suggests that god himself is working within a construct that predated his esixtence and that contains certian rules in by which he himself must play by. Why would god have to play the probability game if he created probability in the first place?

This is just another convoluted way of trying to sidestep the free will argument against the existence of the xtian god. And it fails as far as I'm concerned.

Jobar · 01-24-2003, 09:54 PM

I also affirm (because Scripture also teaches) that God created us with the capacity to love, and thus empowered us to decide some matters for ourselves.

Huh? Since when is love the same thing as free will?

cfgauss · 01-24-2003, 10:44 PM

Maybe God is like Q on Star Trek?

Ulrich · 01-25-2003, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cfgauss
Maybe God is like Q on Star Trek?

Nah, Q was much more rational, and much less reactionary than the god of the bible.

Also, consider that when we first met Q in Star Trek: TNG he was putting a few individuals on trial, and holding them accountable for, the collective crimes of all humanity. When we first meet god in the bible he decides to hold humanity responsible for the crimes of a few individuals. At least Q gave Picard a chance to plead his case, when has god ever given anyone that chance in the bible?

Thomas Metcalf · 01-25-2003, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt :

"That humans possess free will, and that this takes care of the problem of evil."

I think there are valid ways to get around Divine omniscience precluding free will, and those are to deny that God has complete omniscience. Yet the free will defense utterly fails as a defense against the argument from evil. The big three reasons are that (1) it's not clear why the free will of evildoers is that important, (2) it's not clear why God doesn't limit our freedom of action more, especially because it's so limited already, and (3) it's not clear that all the evil in the world is the result of free will decisions.

01-25-2003, 01:11 AM	#10
Thomas Metcalf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 1,009	Re: Openness Theology Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt : "That humans possess free will, and that this takes care of the problem of evil." I think there are valid ways to get around Divine omniscience precluding free will, and those are to deny that God has complete omniscience. Yet the free will defense utterly fails as a defense against the argument from evil. The big three reasons are that (1) it's not clear why the free will of evildoers is that important, (2) it's not clear why God doesn't limit our freedom of action more, especially because it's so limited already, and (3) it's not clear that all the evil in the world is the result of free will decisions.

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01-24-2003, 03:06 PM	#1
ReasonableDoubt Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 86	Openness Theology I'm new to this forum- I'm not an atheist but find a lot of the arguments very intelligent and convincing. I have a question for the atheist/agnostic posters here- have you heard of a "new" idea in Christian theology involving the nature of God called openness? Basically, that God is not omniscient in the sense that it's classically been taught. That God cannot know the future b/c it is not here yet, etc. That humans possess free will, and that this takes care of the problem of evil. I've been on a site of Greg Boyd's (one of the theologians behind this theory) and attempting to argue that this view is not accurate. I'm interested to see what an atheist reply is to this view of God's nature. Thanks!

01-24-2003, 03:43 PM	#2
JCS Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: right over there Posts: 753	I am not familiar with that particular idea. Is there a website? I'm not sure the bible contains ciphers that allow for anything other than literal reading. Doesn't assigning new meaning to words or phrases pretty much change everything. Are these just efforts at re-cycling their deity belief to a level that allows for some intellectual comfort?

01-24-2003, 04:26 PM	#3
WWSD Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Albucrazy, New Mexico Posts: 1,425	Interesting theory. The problem with it, IMO, is that it totally discredits the entire idea of prophecy. If god doesn't know the future, how then does he relate the information about future events to his prophets? Or has he some limited prescience? Do his prophets somehow have insight that he himself lacks? That doesn't jibe well with the idea of a great powerful god. Seems rather dubious to me. And if god doesn't really know what the future holds, how then am I supposed to believe that he defeats Satan and his ministers at Meggido in the end times? If it's all up in the air, why shouldn't I join the ranks of the great army of the underworld and fight for them? What if Satan wins and tosses god into the fiery pits?

01-24-2003, 05:07 PM	#4
ReasonableDoubt Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 86	Here's the website: www.gregboyd.org The site does address the issues of how do you have prophecies, etc.

01-24-2003, 05:16 PM	#5
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Here's the page. It's the usual doubletalk: http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=506

01-24-2003, 09:54 PM	#7
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	I also affirm (because Scripture also teaches) that God created us with the capacity to love, and thus empowered us to decide some matters for ourselves. Huh? Since when is love the same thing as free will?

01-24-2003, 10:44 PM	#8
cfgauss Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 108	Maybe God is like Q on Star Trek?

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