Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hondo · 06-11-2002, 10:06 AM

Tercel, Orion and others.

Sorry for the poor job of reading, and subsequent foot in mouth job. Now slinking back to lurker status.

Hondo

Sauron · 06-11-2002, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:
Orion,
Try not to confuse "the Kingdom of God" (which consists of Christian fellowship on earth and which did "come with power" in Acts) with the 2nd Coming.

I find this strange.

Is the "kingdom of God" the same thing as the "kingdom of heaven"? They are used interchangeably.

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Sauron ]

Tercel · 06-12-2002, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron:
Try not to confuse "the Kingdom of God" (which consists of Christian fellowship on earth and which did "come with power" in Acts) with the 2nd Coming.

I find this strange.

Is the "kingdom of God" the same thing as the "kingdom of heaven"? They are used interchangeably.

Without going and checking every single reference to either of these, memory informs me that they are the same thing.
Jesus' preaching on the subject of the Kingdom as presented in the Gospels is more than a little confusing. Sometimes his explanations are clearly about a Kingdom on earth whilst the contexts of other comments seem to refer to the second coming. Did he equate the two? Did the Gospel writers confuse two separate issues? I'm no expert on the subject, so I can only recommend you try to find a good book on it. From what I've read about St Augustine's writings on the subject, I am of the understanding that he entirely equated the Kingdom of God and many of the texts that on face value seem to regard the second coming, with the Christian Church and the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Sojourner553 · 06-12-2002, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hondo:
I've heard:

God doesn't tell time the same way we do! The days in Genesis were much longer than the 24 hour days we think of. Actually the days referred to in the bible were thousands of years.

The NT writers misunderstood, or were merely putting their very human opinions forward.

They were speaking of the generation of mankind, from it's inception, to it's ultimate demise at end times.

The Greek, Jewish, Arimaic, etc. words for day have multiple meanings.

Etc, Etc, Etc.

There are as many explanations, as there are xtian denominations. Trying to pin them down on this particular point is like trying to catch a jack-rabbit on a giant greasy griddle, on a hot August day.

Hondo

" And then shall they see the Son of man
coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he
send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four
winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of
heaven ...Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass,
till all these things be done."

Your point makes no sense since the predictions are not given in # of days (like the Creation in Genesis) but the Second Coming is explicitely stated to occur before THIS GENERATION (concurrent with Jesus) dies off.

This subject is taken up here,

(Of course if you really care...)

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/APOCALYP.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/APOCALYP.TXT</a>

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

Sojourner

Ion · 06-12-2002, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Orion:
The NT authors considered Jesus' second coming to be imminent. Translation: "real soon".

Mark 9:1 - And he said to them, I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.
Luke 21:31-32 - Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
1 Corinthians 7:26, 29, 31 - Because of the present distress, I think it is good for you to remain as you are [i.e., unmarried] . . . What I mean, brothers, is that the appointed time has grown short . . . For this world in its present form is passing away.
Hebrews 10:37 - For in just a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.
1 Thess. 4:16-17 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
James 5:7-9 - Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. . . You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near.
1 Peter 1:20 - He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1 Peter 4:7 - The end of all things is near.
Rev. 22:20 - Surely I come quickly.

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Orion ]

Also:

1) "Assuredly, I say to you there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." in Matt. 16:28.
Today, no one from 2000 years ago is still standing and "...not taste death...", everybody died, yet the "...Son of Man coming in his kingdom." didn't happen: it is a bogus prophecy in the Bible.

2) Matt. 24:24 is similar to 1).

Ion · 06-12-2002, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:

...
2) Matt. 24:24 is similar to 1).

Correction: Matt. 24:34.

Hondo · 06-13-2002, 12:55 PM

Sojourner 553,

Thanks, the article was an excellent synopsis of the second coming question. Yes I do care about this idea, as IMHO the second coming question represents the weakest link, in a long chain of weak links that make up the biblical ball and chain.

Sojourner I agree your the following statement

Quote:

Your point makes no sense since the predictions are not given in # of days (like the Creation in Genesis) but the Second Coming is explicitely stated to occur before THIS GENERATION (concurrent with Jesus) dies off.

I was merely trying to make the point(extremely poorly) that I've heard xtians argue that, "the second coming has not occured because god tells time differently than we do, therefore we cannot be sure what he actually means when refering to future events." Which is a kin to saying god is a mystery that none of us can understand, so don't try!

My quote that Sojourner 553 rightfully took offense too:

I've heard:
God doesn't tell time the same way we do! The days in Genesis were much longer than the 24 hour days we think of. Actually the days referred to in the bible were thousands of years.

Here is what I should have said. If a day can be interpreted to be thousands of years to God, then how the hell long might a generation be? 1 day = thousands of years, one year = 365 thousands of years, one generation = millions of years. This kind of logic gives the xtian a platinum visa card of excuse making ability, the sky is the limit. This particular excuse allows those who use it many, many years of manuevering space.

Now to put the weak excuses I've heard aside, I agree Sojourner that the focus should be on the fact that the NT shows that the times stated by the various authors in the NT have clearly come and gone, without the predicted second coming. Strike three, for the third out at the end of the ninth. Game over.

Again sorry for any problems that my initial post in this thread created, as I wrote them at an inopportune time. Hopefully any future posts take on a more meaningful tone.

Hondo

Ion · 06-13-2002, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:
Also:

1) "Assuredly, I say to you there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." in Matt. 16:28.
Today, no one from 2000 years ago is still standing and "...not taste death...", everybody died, yet the "...Son of Man coming in his kingdom." didn't happen: it is a bogus prophecy in the Bible.

2) Matt. 24:34 is similar to 1).

Matt. 16:28 and 24:34 don't speak about years before the 'second coming', they speak about people from 2,000 years ago not dying before the 'second coming' happens.
Everybody from 2,000 years ago died, but the 'second coming' didn't happen.
So, Matt. 16:28 and 24:34 are already false prophecies.

MrDarwin · 06-13-2002, 07:01 PM

Second coming? Isn't that something to do with multiple orgasms? I've heard it's possible but haven't managed it yet.

Ruy Lopez · 06-13-2002, 07:10 PM

McDarwin: Multiples apply to women only. If you are one, you have a problem.

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06-11-2002, 10:06 AM	#11
Hondo Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Ca Posts: 51	Tercel, Orion and others. Sorry for the poor job of reading, and subsequent foot in mouth job. Now slinking back to lurker status. Hondo

06-13-2002, 07:01 PM	#19
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Second coming? Isn't that something to do with multiple orgasms? I've heard it's possible but haven't managed it yet.

06-13-2002, 07:10 PM	#20
Ruy Lopez Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manila Posts: 5,516	McDarwin: Multiples apply to women only. If you are one, you have a problem.

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