Arrowman

Over on the Baptist Board, Helen Setterfield recently posted the following:

"...You know what is funny? Public education was started so that it could make sure every child could read the Bible. Ironic, eh?"

(The discussion is about censorship/suppression of books and other material by liberals and conservatives, and the extent to which each side does it. Helen is repeating yet again her claim that "christian material isn't allowed in schools in California" but as in the past has not cited any independent source for this. Just anecdotes on the 'Net. She's such a critical / scientific thinker.)

Anyway - the above quote caught my eye and I'd like to hear from the resident experts on the history of the US consitution etc. How much truth is there in Helen's assertion, or is this just another "this country was founded on Christian principles" argument?

I'm suspecting that somewhere along the way, an early politician or school administrator made a remark that kids being able to read would be A Good Thing because then they could read the Bible, and this has been spun into a myth that that was the sole or major reason for the public education system being started. Does anyone have any more solid knowledge?

PS For starters, and to pre-empt all the Snopes addicts out there, here is a Snopes entry referring to a supposed 1872 set of "Rules For Teachers":

<a href="http://www.snopes2.com/language/document/1872rule.htm" target="_blank">http://www.snopes2.com/language/document/1872rule.htm</a>

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Arrowman ]</p>

Buffman

"Church and State in America" by Edwin S. Gaustad, Oxford University Press, New York/Oxford,1999....Chapter 5, "The Establishment Clause: Public Schools."

1830 and Horace Mann
1840's and Archbishop John Hughes
1869 and Judge Alphonso Taft

Here are some of Jefferson's thoughts concerning Education.

<a href="http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1350.htm" target="_blank">http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1350.htm</a>

Arrowman:

Helen Setterfield's remark is meaningless unless she provides a definition of "Public" education. However, given that copies of the Bible were available to most early Americans, she may well have a strong point that young people were taught to read using "The New England Primer" and the Bible. Both were heavily biased by Protestant dogma/interpretations. That is what caused Archbishop Hughes to push the Catholic Parochial School System.

<a href="http://my.voyager.net/~jayjo/primer.htm" target="_blank">http://my.voyager.net/~jayjo/primer.htm</a>

Interesting list of available publications in early America...if one could read.

<a href="http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/" target="_blank">http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/</a>

PBS presentation on this very issue. (Checkout "Innovators.")

<a href="http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/index.html</a>

An interesting parallel took place in England. (Read paragraph three! It tends to support Helen's Bible contention.)

Buffman

Arrowman

On the URL that provides the list of publications available in Colonial America, I found this at the very end:

"Dr. Gary Amos - Associate Professor, Regent University Law School; holds a Juris Doctor degree and a B.A. in history, pre-law, and theology. He is a member of the Bar of the Commonwealth of Virginia. Dr. Amos has published several works dealing with the the history of the religious background of the common law and its relationship to American political theory.

Richard Gardiner - Ph.D. Candidate, Marquette University; B.A. (Magna Cum Laude) University of Maryland--College Park; M.Div., Princeton Theological Seminary; History Teacher's Certification, Princeton University. While at Princeton Theological Seminary, Richard Gardiner re-founded and edited The Princeton Theological Review, now in its 7th year. Mr. Gardiner has published a number of journal and periodical articles related to the study of American History."

I just posted this personal observation elsewhere:

phaedrus
If you read the review by "nanrung," I think you will see why I have a secular cynicism about the ultimate goals/agenda of 73 year old Mr. Barrett and Regent Univ.

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195079639/ref=ase_ontarioconsultanA/103-0088635-8256605" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195079639/ref=ase_ontarioconsultanA/103-0088635-8256605</a>

This is the same University that took out a full page ad in the April 9, 2001 edition of "USN&WR" (pg. 29) deliberately misquoting James Madison:

We have staked the whole of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. James Madison, Chief Architect of the Constitution"

If that is an example of the level of academic scholarship offered by members of the faculty and staff of Regent U., then I am suspect of everything else produced from that source...which includes Mr. Barrett's effort.

....and now that of Dr. Amos.

Arrowman

A quick search threw up the following at
<a href="http://www.newhope.bc.ca/guest03.htm" target="_blank">http://www.newhope.bc.ca/guest03.htm</a>

"..."I would say that the Bible's real influence in education arose with the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century," stated M. Louise Cornell, professor of education at Provi-dence College in Otterburne, Man.

Reformation teaching emphasized that each person, filled with the Holy Spirit, could interpret the Bible without help, according to Cornell. But interpretation depends upon each person being able to read, creating a need for literacy. That need, says Cornell, led to the formation of many schools.

Though the Reformation by no means introduced the con-cept of schooling, establishment of schools became much more widespread in countries touched by the Protestant Reformation, she explained. The role of the Bible in education may be traced even to the early church...."

Now, the site in question is the Newhope Community Church, and Providence College is a Catholic/Dominican college, so one may suspect a certain bias here - but I think it is fair to say that the desire to spread literacy as a support for reading the Bible was probably one of the drivers in the development of education systems in Europe during the Reformation.

But it is a big stretch from there to "public education was started..." (as Buffman says, define "public education") and of course the implicit reference to the US system, which was started after, and separately from, the European system, and in a quite different social/religious environment.

It's a bit like saying "some of the founding fathers were Christians, therefore the US was founded as a Christian nation".

Like many of Helen's assertions, this is (delberately) ambiguous and emotive.

Buffman

Some additional reference URLs that deserve a review before going out on a limb that could get sawed off behind you. (Enjoyed the research. Thanks.)

<a href="http://alumni.cc.gettysburg.edu/~s330558/schooling.html" target="_blank">http://alumni.cc.gettysburg.edu/~s330558/schooling.html</a>

<a href="http://www.stratfordhall.org/ed-boysgirls.htm" target="_blank">http://www.stratfordhall.org/ed-boysgirls.htm</a>

Vorkosigan

Regent College is Pat Robertson's personal attempt to build a Harvard for Reich-wing Christians. Nothing that comes out of there is reliable.

The nation's oldest public school system is in Boston. I got this off the net and then lost the site.

Boston Latin School in Boston, Mass. is the oldest public school in America. It was founded April 23, 1635.

It was started by Rev. John Cotton who wanted to create a school modeled after the Free Grammar School in Boston, England, in which Latin and Greek were taught. The school was publicly funded and the first classes were held in the home of Philemon Pormort, the school's master.

Believe it or not five of the 56 signers of the U.S. Constitution attended Boston Latin: John Hancock, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Treat Paine, and William Hooper.

I don't think anyone can deny the Bible played a vital role in the establishment of "public schools" for white males. What does that mean? Nothing. It's just Helen baiting you. Ask her if she thinks the compulsory bible readings were what made so many of the nation's founding fathers deists

Vorkosigan

Arrowman

Thanks guys.

I am in no danger of having a limb sawed off behind me, or responding to a bait from Helen - I'm one of the banned Satanic 25, remember? Even if I were "still there", I wouldn't go for Helen on this one; this sort of thing has happened before with Helen and other posters, ie
1. Fundy makes ambiguous statement which creates emotional but not factual support for a position.
2. Atheist/skeptic (ie, me ) picks them up on it and clarifies.
3. Fundy accuses atheist/skeptic of being pedantic, or nitpicking, or dodging "The Truth", and claims statement retains validity.
4. Atheist/skeptic sighs and wishes they'd never got involved.

Anyhoo, I think we can summarise this one as:

1. At least part of the impetus for the development of a broad-based education system (if not "public" in the modern sense) during Reformation Europe came from the desire of the churches (and where relevant, religious-tied governments) to broaden literacy for purposes of being able to read the Bible.
2. The US public education system was developed separately from, and after, the European system and was not initiated for the same reason (ie, literacy -&gt; Bible access).
3. The Bible and other religious texts were often used as texts in the early US education system, but that is not the same as saying that the system was developed for the purpose of students being able to read those texts.

So there is some validity in what Helen says, but only in the very broadest sense and certainly not enough to make any kind of a point or "irony". Not a big deal, but sadly in my experience typical of the emotion- rather than fact-based statements which this paragon of scientific thinking (and others) like to use in debate.

Buffman

I'm still having difficulty with the definition of "public." Boston Latin has always been student selective...even from its Bible reading beginnings. I don't think the doors were open to the children of Quakers, Baptists, Catholics or anyone not of the established faith. Yet everyone was taxed for its operational expenses.---During my youth, it was considered the top academic high school in the New England area. It was exclusively a college preparatory school for students who couldn't afford to attend the area Private Prep schools.

<a href="http://boston.k12.ma.us/schools/rc612.asp" target="_blank">http://boston.k12.ma.us/schools/rc612.asp</a>

nogods4me

wasn't there public education well before the US was founded? didn't the ancient greeks have a type of public school, before there was even a bible?

Corwin

American public schools, as I understand it, were founded in order to teach people to follow a schedule. It was part of the industrial revolution... get the kids used to showing up for school on time, and you get adults that show up for work on time. It's pretty insidious really....