Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pz · 01-17-2003, 07:52 AM

I've figured it out, and the posts from Sabine and Seebs have revealed the answer to me.

God is apophenia. Nothing more.

emur · 01-17-2003, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by emur
Seebs, you mentioned the free will issue. This seems to be the fall back position for many Christians when faced with the problem of suffering or wrongs committed by believers. God could prod, convict, show by way of a life lesson, etc these closed people like Fred Phelps, but in my experience of dealing with them, he doesn't. They show no sign of such activities on the part of God.

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I'm not sure He could without pushing the boundaries a lot.

What? God couldn't even prod them without violating free will? If someone is open they can get guidance from God, but if someone is closed they cannot? It seems to me, by your way of thinking, both would be pushing the boundaries of free will.

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by emur:
The free will argument is fine with me if you are talking about God using us like robots. However, there is nothing interfering with free will if God intervenes to show someone they are wrong. Upon being shown, the person would at least some of the time do the right thing. Yet, I have not observed such.
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Oh, I see people do the right thing *sometimes*.

I have yet to see a Christian who mistreats others by beating them over the head with doctrine, rules, etc change their position. Not once. Such individuals show no sign of God's prodding in their lives. I'm not saying it never happens. But if it does, is suspect it is rare.

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by emur:
Look, Seebs, I have seen so much hurt perpetrated at the hands of Christians who are supposedly right with God that it would take a hell of a lot more than illustrations such as yours or Sabine's to lift me over that hurdle. I cannot poo poo human suffering, especially that done at the hands of "God's people"! Eternal significance or no, people have to get through their lives here on earth, and if God will not work with his people to treat others better, then he is totally unworthy of my affection.

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I think He does, but perhaps not as much as you or I might like - but I guess I trust Him.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Didn't you just say above that God's prodding of closed Christians would be pushing the free will boundaries a bit? I cannot trust an entity who does little or nothing to address injustices, hurts, etc perpetrated by his own people.

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by emur:
God may help someone by creating guitar picks out of nothing, but he is hurting others by his pathetic inaction toward his hurtful saints. He may gain some with seemingly miraculous events, but he has lost many others due to his inaction in their lives.

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I sometimes wonder about this too. However, when I've talked to these people, the impression I've gotten is that they are not going to change their minds until they're good and ready; I honestly don't know that *any* sign would be enough to make them rethink their positions.

Maybe, but consider this: if God is doing nothing, or is trying but is ineffective, then what is the whole point? People are going to do what they want anyway. People who are getting mistreated by God's people have absolutely no reason to go to God with it. They will either get "I leave people who are like that alone" or "I'm trying, I'm trying, but they aren't listening". Either way, the perpetrators continue what they are doing, convinced that they are doing what God wants them to do, and those on the receiving end stay there, unless they leave the church or Christian theism.

Clearly, under your system, God is not a friend to those abused by his people. They either have to stay and take it, or get the hell out. Their well being is not his concern.

Mel

seebs · 01-17-2003, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emur

I'm not sure He could without pushing the boundaries a lot.

What? God couldn't even prod them without violating free will? If someone is open they can get guidance from God, but if someone is closed they cannot? It seems to me, by your way of thinking, both would be pushing the boundaries of free will.

I don't think so. If I *ask*, I can be *told*. Then it's my decision to ask. It's like a roller coaster; I can decide whether or not to get on, and then the rest, whether or not I can control the car, is a result of *my* choice.

Quote:

Oh, I see people do the right thing *sometimes*.

I have yet to see a Christian who mistreats others by beating them over the head with doctrine, rules, etc change their position. Not once. Such individuals show no sign of God's prodding in their lives. I'm not saying it never happens. But if it does, is suspect it is rare.

I agree that it's rare, but I think this is because such people are utterly committed to their position - not, say, to the hypothetical God they're talking about. They've mistaken their current belief on an issue for God.

Quote:

I think He does, but perhaps not as much as you or I might like - but I guess I trust Him.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Didn't you just say above that God's prodding of closed Christians would be pushing the free will boundaries a bit? I cannot trust an entity who does little or nothing to address injustices, hurts, etc perpetrated by his own people.

Well, if nothing else, you can trust Him not to push you yourself around. That's worth a lot, IMHO. I like the belief that I still get to make my own choices, and I'm guided, not moved.

Quote:

I sometimes wonder about this too. However, when I've talked to these people, the impression I've gotten is that they are not going to change their minds until they're good and ready; I honestly don't know that *any* sign would be enough to make them rethink their positions.

Maybe, but consider this: if God is doing nothing, or is trying but is ineffective, then what is the whole point? People are going to do what they want anyway. People who are getting mistreated by God's people have absolutely no reason to go to God with it. They will either get "I leave people who are like that alone" or "I'm trying, I'm trying, but they aren't listening". Either way, the perpetrators continue what they are doing, convinced that they are doing what God wants them to do, and those on the receiving end stay there, unless they leave the church or Christian theism.

I don't think that's true. On the rare occasions when I've seen people become less inclined to bash others based on personal beliefs, it's often involved personal testimony.

Let me give you a concrete example. I've probably written ~3000 posts, maybe more, in the homosexuality threads over on ChristianForums. Sounds like a waste... but people are gradually yielding on a few points here and there. It used to be that everyone in those threads thought homosexuality was a choice, and homosexuals were just being bad to spite God.

But you know what happened? A few of those persecuted people went to God, and asked, not what *He* was doing, but what *they* could do. And now, when I argue that point, I have witnesses who make it pretty clear that God is active in their lives, but they're gay, and it's not changing.

What, then, is God doing? Giving us patience and support, mostly. I wouldn't be able to put up with the constant swarm of personal attacks and repetitions of old arguments, but whenever I'm ready to give up, I get a little nudge to remind me that, if I want people to take Christianity seriously, there's work to be done.

It may not seem like much, but a lot of people are gradually softening their positions; even if they're not convinced, some of them no longer attack people who disagree so much, because they've come to believe that this is an issue on which Christians can disagree.

This may not be *much*, but it's just *me*. One guy... Except that now it's not. A few other people generally join these threads, making similar arguments, supporting their point from Scripture and medical research... and it's progress. Maybe it's slow. Maybe everyone would be better off if God just manifested, called a press conference, and said "get over it already, I don't have a problem with gays".

But I think this is the only way that leaves us the option of making our own decisions, honestly, based on desire for truth, not fear.

Quote:

Clearly, under your system, God is not a friend to those abused by his people. They either have to stay and take it, or get the hell out. Their well being is not his concern.

I disagree; He is often a friend to the downtrodden, but mostly, that's a question of how serious His followers are. Some of us are out there doing something. Really, if you want to improve things, the best thing you could do would be to help us.

It's not as if bigotry is inherently religious; religion's just a hook to hang it on.

emur · 01-17-2003, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs
I don't think that's true. On the rare occasions when I've seen people become less inclined to bash others based on personal beliefs, it's often involved personal testimony.

Let me give you a concrete example. I've probably written ~3000 posts, maybe more, in the homosexuality threads over on ChristianForums. Sounds like a waste... but people are gradually yielding on a few points here and there. It used to be that everyone in those threads thought homosexuality was a choice, and homosexuals were just being bad to spite God.

But you know what happened? A few of those persecuted people went to God, and asked, not what *He* was doing, but what *they* could do. And now, when I argue that point, I have witnesses who make it pretty clear that God is active in their lives, but they're gay, and it's not changing.

What, then, is God doing? Giving us patience and support, mostly. I wouldn't be able to put up with the constant swarm of personal attacks and repetitions of old arguments, but whenever I'm ready to give up, I get a little nudge to remind me that, if I want people to take Christianity seriously, there's work to be done.

It may not seem like much, but a lot of people are gradually softening their positions; even if they're not convinced, some of them no longer attack people who disagree so much, because they've come to believe that this is an issue on which Christians can disagree.

This may not be *much*, but it's just *me*. One guy... Except that now it's not. A few other people generally join these threads, making similar arguments, supporting their point from Scripture and medical research... and it's progress. Maybe it's slow. Maybe everyone would be better off if God just manifested, called a press conference, and said "get over it already, I don't have a problem with gays".

But I think this is the only way that leaves us the option of making our own decisions, honestly, based on desire for truth, not fear.

I am glad you are finding people softening their positions. Yet people who suffer at the hands of God's people have to rely on other people and a slow process for relief, or as I said, walk away. For the most part under your system, God is useless as an aid to the hurting. It is people like yourself who are making a little difference.

Quote:

I disagree; He is often a friend to the downtrodden, but mostly, that's a question of how serious His followers are. Some of us are out there doing something. Really, if you want to improve things, the best thing you could do would be to help us.

But again, it depends on God's followers. How can God be a friend of the downtrodden when we observe what is going on in the real world? Friend has to take on a very different meaning than what we assign it in everyday language.

It seems to me that your God has free will as an idol. It is the sacred cow that cannot be compromised. You are certainly welcome to believe what you wish. Such a God to me is cold and heartless, and could give a rats ass about what his people do. If he does care, he doesn't show it. When it is all said and done, what we observe today is a world either without a God or with a non-interventionist God, at least for all practical purposes.

Mel

seebs · 01-17-2003, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emur
I am glad you are finding people softening their positions. Yet people who suffer at the hands of God's people have to rely on other people and a slow process for relief, or as I said, walk away. For the most part under your system, God is useless as an aid to the hurting. It is people like yourself who are making a little difference.

I think He helps them, but not always in the ways people would expect. God has helped me when I've been hurt or unhappy - not necessarily by making people stop disliking me, perhaps, but by making me better able to accept the world.

Quote:

But again, it depends on God's followers. How can God be a friend of the downtrodden when we observe what is going on in the real world? Friend has to take on a very different meaning than what we assign it in everyday language.

It seems to me that your God has free will as an idol. It is the sacred cow that cannot be compromised. You are certainly welcome to believe what you wish. Such a God to me is cold and heartless, and could give a rats ass about what his people do. If he does care, he doesn't show it. When it is all said and done, what we observe today is a world either without a God or with a non-interventionist God, at least for all practical purposes.

Hmm. I guess, I don't see it as heartless; I see it as a kind of respect for us that necessarily trumps other considerations.

As to the intervention... I think it's fair to give God credit for some portion of the actions taken by Christians, and many of us do useful things. Perhaps not enough to undo the damage done by assholes, but I think it's probably actually a good bet for the world, on the whole.

I agree that it is possible that I'm mistaken, but in the end, I have faith that my personal experiences show truth, and I just don't know some things about the structure of the world yet.

emur · 01-17-2003, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs
I think He helps them, but not always in the ways people would expect. God has helped me when I've been hurt or unhappy - not necessarily by making people stop disliking me, perhaps, but by making me better able to accept the world.

I'm not talking about God making people stop doing what they are doing. I'm talking about God prodding or convicting HIS FOLLOWERS when they wrong others. But in your system, he does nothing. This is why I don't like the "loving father" view of God. No loving father would allow any of his children to hurt other children of his, using his name, and do nothing. Call it what you want, but it isn't loving.

I'm glad you have found help when you were hurt or unhappy. I used to think I did from God, until I became a minister and realized that there was something wrong with the program. When you experience and observe the crap that I did perpetrated by other Christians, it's enough to make your head stinking explode. When it came to being hurt by his followers, God's help was missing in action.

Quote:

Hmm. I guess, I don't see it as heartless; I see it as a kind of respect for us that necessarily trumps other considerations.

You are welcome to your view, but respect it is not.

Quote:

As to the intervention... I think it's fair to give God credit for some portion of the actions taken by Christians, and many of us do useful things. Perhaps not enough to undo the damage done by assholes, but I think it's probably actually a good bet for the world, on the whole.

This is very convenient. God gets the credit for the good stuff, but is let off the hook for the bad.

Yes, there are many Christians who do useful things. And it is not enough to undo the damage by assholes. I think, when you consider the past and the present, that the damage far outweighs the usefulness. I'm glad for the usefulness, but the overall program stinks.

Quote:

I agree that it is possible that I'm mistaken, but in the end, I have faith that my personal experiences show truth, and I just don't know some things about the structure of the world yet.

My personal experiences show truth too. Yet they don't require faith. I know what being treated like crap is when I see it and when I experience it. And for me, it would require blind faith to trust the God you describe, because such a being is so detached from reality that I would have to throw away my mind and my identity to believe in its existence.

Mel

LuckyCharm · 01-18-2003, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emur
No loving father would allow any of his children to hurt other children of his, using his name, and do nothing. Call it what you want, but it isn't loving.

Not that I can claim any authority on the subject of parenting, but it seems to me that the only way to prevent a child -- or anyone! -- from ever hurting anybody would be to lock them in a room by themselves, and only allow contact with others under controlled supervision. To my way of thinking, this seems more like child abuse than loving parenting!

Oh, you'll say that God, being all-powerful, wouldn't need to resort to physical restraint. He could achieve the result you desire through simple mind control, right? Thanks, but no thanks... I would rather be deprived of my physical liberty and retain my freedom of thought and spirit, like so many POWs who come out of captivity having triumphed over their brutal experiences, than to be reduced to an automaton whose "love" was merely the result of "proper programming," divorced from my own free will.

Also, who are you to judge whether God is actually doing "nothing" in any given person's life and soul? Who are you to require an accounting from God? Do you know what trials and agonies await Osama bin Laden, or Hitler, or me, or even yourself, on account of the wicked choices we have made? "A false witness will not go unpunished... A hot-tempered man must pay the penalty... Penalties are prepared for mockers... Stern discipline awaits him who leaves the path... The faithless will be fully repaid for their ways... An evil man is trapped by his sinful talk... Be sure of this: the wicked will not go unpunished... Do not envy a violent man, or choose any of his ways... Do not fret because of evil men or be envious of those who do wrong; for like the grass they will soon wither... Do not let your heart envy sinners...." (selected quotes from Proverbs and Psalms)

"There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil..." (St. Paul)

"It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them." (Deuteronomy)

"For we know him who said, 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' and again, 'The Lord will judge his people.' It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hand of the living God." (Hebrews)

~~Cheryl

emur · 01-18-2003, 09:40 AM

Cheryl,

I will start another topic here in Religious Discussions to respond to your post, since the original topic had to do with Seebs views.

I'm glad that you posted.

Mel

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01-17-2003, 07:52 AM	#71
pz Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Morris, MN Posts: 3,341	I've figured it out, and the posts from Sabine and Seebs have revealed the answer to me. God is apophenia. Nothing more.

01-17-2003, 08:07 AM	#72
emur Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: New York State Posts: 130	Originally posted by emur Seebs, you mentioned the free will issue. This seems to be the fall back position for many Christians when faced with the problem of suffering or wrongs committed by believers. God could prod, convict, show by way of a life lesson, etc these closed people like Fred Phelps, but in my experience of dealing with them, he doesn't. They show no sign of such activities on the part of God. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure He could without pushing the boundaries a lot. What? God couldn't even prod them without violating free will? If someone is open they can get guidance from God, but if someone is closed they cannot? It seems to me, by your way of thinking, both would be pushing the boundaries of free will. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- by emur: The free will argument is fine with me if you are talking about God using us like robots. However, there is nothing interfering with free will if God intervenes to show someone they are wrong. Upon being shown, the person would at least some of the time do the right thing. Yet, I have not observed such. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Oh, I see people do the right thing sometimes.* I have yet to see a Christian who mistreats others by beating them over the head with doctrine, rules, etc change their position. Not once. Such individuals show no sign of God's prodding in their lives. I'm not saying it never happens. But if it does, is suspect it is rare. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- by emur: Look, Seebs, I have seen so much hurt perpetrated at the hands of Christians who are supposedly right with God that it would take a hell of a lot more than illustrations such as yours or Sabine's to lift me over that hurdle. I cannot poo poo human suffering, especially that done at the hands of "God's people"! Eternal significance or no, people have to get through their lives here on earth, and if God will not work with his people to treat others better, then he is totally unworthy of my affection. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think He does, but perhaps not as much as you or I might like - but I guess I trust Him. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Didn't you just say above that God's prodding of closed Christians would be pushing the free will boundaries a bit? I cannot trust an entity who does little or nothing to address injustices, hurts, etc perpetrated by his own people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- by emur: God may help someone by creating guitar picks out of nothing, but he is hurting others by his pathetic inaction toward his hurtful saints. He may gain some with seemingly miraculous events, but he has lost many others due to his inaction in their lives. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I sometimes wonder about this too. However, when I've talked to these people, the impression I've gotten is that they are not going to change their minds until they're good and ready; I honestly don't know that any sign would be enough to make them rethink their positions. Maybe, but consider this: if God is doing nothing, or is trying but is ineffective, then what is the whole point? People are going to do what they want anyway. People who are getting mistreated by God's people have absolutely no reason to go to God with it. They will either get "I leave people who are like that alone" or "I'm trying, I'm trying, but they aren't listening". Either way, the perpetrators continue what they are doing, convinced that they are doing what God wants them to do, and those on the receiving end stay there, unless they leave the church or Christian theism. Clearly, under your system, God is not a friend to those abused by his people. They either have to stay and take it, or get the hell out. Their well being is not his concern. Mel

01-18-2003, 09:40 AM	#78
emur Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: New York State Posts: 130	Cheryl, I will start another topic here in Religious Discussions to respond to your post, since the original topic had to do with Seebs views. I'm glad that you posted. Mel

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