Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Janaya · 09-21-2002, 08:25 AM

Just a thought on war/God psychology...

Let's assume people truly believe that God is on their side. If they win the war then their belief is re-inforced. "God is on our side." However, if they lose the war they may wonder if perhaps they were wrong about God. That's when the religionists jump in and explain "Of, course God is on our side, he just allowed us to lose to teach us a lesson. The fault is ours not God's." Then the belief is also re-inforced. In this way religion and God cannot lose. And then the dumb schmucks thank the religious leaders for explaining this to them and ask what they can do to make God happy again so that they can then go and annihilate their enemies.

[ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Janaya ]

David M. Payne · 09-21-2002, 07:29 PM

Noticeably absent from this discussion are any of our heavy weight theists here at the Sec-Web. I guess they know when they are going to lose an argument here before they even get started.

David

hinduwoman · 09-21-2002, 07:32 PM

I think it would be more proper to say that though many wars do not have a religious motive, once it begins, both sides invoke their tribal deities to pray for them.

lpetrich · 09-22-2002, 11:08 AM

I like to think about the pagan Greco-Roman world in this connection -- I do not know of any wars being fought because some people were supposedly "heretics" or "infidels".

This despite their seemingly enjoying fighting lots of wars.

There were some "Sacred Wars", to be sure, but those were wars fought over such holy places as the Oracle of Delphi.

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]

AtlanticCitySlave · 09-22-2002, 02:36 PM

That's like saying "is freedom the biggest mass murderer of all time?". Most, if not all wars, have God in there because it's something to get people to support you on, it doesn't mean religion (or God) was a main underlying reason for the war. Wars are mainly fought over stuff (land, oil, etc.). The gulf war wasn't about God, it was about oil.

Stephen T-B · 09-23-2002, 06:46 AM

I never read any history which identiffied the First World War as having any thing to do with religions; I have never read any history which identified the Second World War as having anything to do with religions, and I have never heard it suggested that religions were in any way involved in the Korean War, the Crimean War, the Boer War, the English Civil War, the War of the Roses, the 100 years war between the English and the French or the Napoleonic wars.
(I'm bored now.)

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen T-B ]

ManM · 09-23-2002, 07:38 AM

David Payne,
Do you think there would be no war without religion?

Cutter · 09-24-2002, 12:07 AM

Stephen T-B: Never read the Nazi's belt buckles? There's your religion for WW2. Korea, and Vietnam, was all about stopping the 'Godless Commies'.

I'm not familiar with the other wars you mention. Mind you, the English Civil war and the War of the Roses has probably got god in it somewhere (most royalty seems to believe they have god on there side, i.e. they rule by divine right). Dunno about the other wars you listed, I'm not terribly familiar with them.

diana · 09-24-2002, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
David Payne,
Do you think there would be no war without religion?

Granted, I'm not David, but I think you're missing his point, ManM.

The question was "Do all wars involve God(s) and religion?"

The implication is that while some wars are undeniably religion driven, all wars use religion to further their ends. (Presumably, because people are willing to hurl themselves off proverbial ledges for their lord. Religion is tailormade to compliment war in this way. If you doubt how much it is an integral part, you should consider rereading the Old Testament.

To answer your question, I have no doubt that there would be wars without religion. There's always some maniac trying to get more of something. And there is the perpetual problem of one race of people wanting to believe they're better than the others (and religion tends to encourage this idea, as well).

But you'd think that religion would make it so wars didn't happen, wouldn't you? Aren't they all about loving your neighbors as yourself?

d

ManM · 09-25-2002, 05:02 AM

diana,
I suspect David's goal is to cast blame on religion. Personally I think there are far deeper causes which need to be addressed, and I just wanted him to contemplate what those causes might be.

Also I'm tempted to start a new topic: Do all wars involve men caring for their families?

09-21-2002, 08:25 AM	#21
Janaya Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 226	Just a thought on war/God psychology... Let's assume people truly believe that God is on their side. If they win the war then their belief is re-inforced. "God is on our side." However, if they lose the war they may wonder if perhaps they were wrong about God. That's when the religionists jump in and explain "Of, course God is on our side, he just allowed us to lose to teach us a lesson. The fault is ours not God's." Then the belief is also re-inforced. In this way religion and God cannot lose. And then the dumb schmucks thank the religious leaders for explaining this to them and ask what they can do to make God happy again so that they can then go and annihilate their enemies. [ September 21, 2002: Message edited by: Janaya ]</p>

09-22-2002, 11:08 AM	#24
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I like to think about the pagan Greco-Roman world in this connection -- I do not know of any wars being fought because some people were supposedly "heretics" or "infidels". This despite their seemingly enjoying fighting lots of wars. There were some "Sacred Wars", to be sure, but those were wars fought over such holy places as the Oracle of Delphi. [ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

09-23-2002, 06:46 AM	#26
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	I never read any history which identiffied the First World War as having any thing to do with religions; I have never read any history which identified the Second World War as having anything to do with religions, and I have never heard it suggested that religions were in any way involved in the Korean War, the Crimean War, the Boer War, the English Civil War, the War of the Roses, the 100 years war between the English and the French or the Napoleonic wars. (I'm bored now.) [ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen T-B ]</p>

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09-21-2002, 07:29 PM	#22
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	Noticeably absent from this discussion are any of our heavy weight theists here at the Sec-Web. I guess they know when they are going to lose an argument here before they even get started. David

09-21-2002, 07:32 PM	#23
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	I think it would be more proper to say that though many wars do not have a religious motive, once it begins, both sides invoke their tribal deities to pray for them.

09-22-2002, 02:36 PM	#25
AtlanticCitySlave Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 251	That's like saying "is freedom the biggest mass murderer of all time?". Most, if not all wars, have God in there because it's something to get people to support you on, it doesn't mean religion (or God) was a main underlying reason for the war. Wars are mainly fought over stuff (land, oil, etc.). The gulf war wasn't about God, it was about oil.

09-23-2002, 07:38 AM	#27
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	David Payne, Do you think there would be no war without religion?

09-24-2002, 12:07 AM	#28
Cutter Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,805	Stephen T-B: Never read the Nazi's belt buckles? There's your religion for WW2. Korea, and Vietnam, was all about stopping the 'Godless Commies'. I'm not familiar with the other wars you mention. Mind you, the English Civil war and the War of the Roses has probably got god in it somewhere (most royalty seems to believe they have god on there side, i.e. they rule by divine right). Dunno about the other wars you listed, I'm not terribly familiar with them.

09-25-2002, 05:02 AM	#30
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	diana, I suspect David's goal is to cast blame on religion. Personally I think there are far deeper causes which need to be addressed, and I just wanted him to contemplate what those causes might be. Also I'm tempted to start a new topic: Do all wars involve men caring for their families?

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