notMichaelJackson

The existance of an afterlife is a major factor in my friend's life. He tells everyone that if was 100% certain that God and an afterlife existed, he would not "sin" at all. He would not do "anything that would jeopardize his chance [at heaven]."

At the other extreme, he tells everyone that if there is no God and no afterlife, he is "going to walk around slapping people." By this he means that he will live a completely amoral/immoral lifestyle and will have a nihilistic philosophy. These were his explainations two years ago, and today he is pretty much a strong atheist with very few morals.

Is his reasoning on the existance of and afterlife and morality right or wrong?

Shadownought

What exactly is he saying, that you want us to comment on? That he himself should only behave morally if there is an afterlife? Or that people in general base their behavior on whether there is an afterlife or not?

notMichaelJackson

Actually, I would like comments on both. Personally, I agree with my friend that if there is no afterlife nothing matters because no matter what we do we will die. I don't think that people in general base their morality on the existance of God and an afterlife, but I would like to know what others think.

Shadownought

Well, I think that people's morality isn't determined by the afterlife, but the way they behave might be. It's sort of like the law: if there were no punishment for stealing, more people would steal; but some people would consider it wrong, and wouldn't do it even though there was no punishment for it. If you behave a certain way only out of fear of punishment, you're not acting according to your morals.

As for the idea that we're all dust anyway, so there's no reason not to run amok while we're alive- I disagree. Even if one's only concern is with avoiding punishment (and most people don't think that way), there ARE earthly punishments for crimes. Why risk having to waste your life in prison, or meet your end prematurely?

zamboniavenger

IMO, morality based simply on fear is a pretty shoddy system of morality. Should you kill someone if you can get away with it? I personally would say no, because one day someone might turn around and kill you if they can get away with it. It sets a precedent. Hmm, I guess that is a system of morality based on fear of punishment, too.

Rusting Car Bumper

What is wrong with his reasoning is that he presumes that morality is based only on a system of explicit rewards and/or punishments.

Let's take the God example: God says, "Thou shalt not kill." What if god suddenly changes his mind and comes to you and says, "Kill your child" (like he did with Abraham.) In fact, god says if you do this you will surely be worthy of reward.

Most people's gut reaction is that "killing one's child" is immoral even if there is a payoff for it. Most people would still see it as "wrong" even if it gave them the cosmic lottery.

Certainly one can be MOTIVATED with a reward and punishment scheme to be moral but that should not be confused with a method or way of determining WHAT is moral.

I would respond personally to anyone that said that he was moral because of a reward/punishment system that he was indeed probably not moral and merely acting of immediate prudence.

DC

Tom Sawyer

notMichaelJackson,

If your friend isn't just making up those examples to make his point, it sounds like he's just plain immoral and scared that God will oneday call him on it.

I heard it once said that morality is what you do when no one is watching. If someone (God) is always watching, then the good acts that you do are not out of a sense of morality, but because Big Brother is watching you. Everyone works hard when their boss is in the same room, people who have integrity work hard when their boss is nowhere around.

Saying that God is needed for a person's morality is saying that that person has no morals of his own and is just doing the right thing so that they won't get punished. That's fine for children, but unnecessary for adults.

dshimel

I base my morality on wanting to have friends that treat me the way I want to be treated. Someone that walks around slapping people, isn't likely to find many people to hang out with that don't expect to be able to slap him around.

I base my morality on liking myself. It makes me feel bad to hurt people, and makes me feel good to help people.

I base my morality on rules that create a world that I want to live in. I don't want people taking my stuff without permission. I don't want someone to kill me. I don't want people lieing to me. Therefore, I don't do these things.

Morality is about treating people in a way that you would want to be treated, and they want to be treated, until they have done something to justify being treated otherwise. It has NOTHING to do with the existance of an afterlife. It has EVERYTHING to do with making this life the best we can.

happyboy

at it's core,christian morality IS based on reward/punishment. it all boils down to "do what God wants or you'll regret it." toe the party line, and you get to mamba forever with the Big Guy in faerieland. DON'T toe the party line, and eternal torture is awaiting you.

yes, christianity is a FINE set of morals.....

happyboy

Jamie_L

Morality based on "afterlife" is a specific way of saying morality based on punishment/reward. And yes, I've known at least one person who thought this way in the extreme - that if there was no God, he'd do whatever evil he thought he could get away with.

Ultimately, thought, there is no God in people's day-to-day lives. Even devout Christians don't see the hand of God coming down and slapping them when they slip up or rewarding them for doing good. With the reward/punishment of God so remote and distant, I don't think it impacts most people that much.

The truth is, most people behave morally because that's what "feels right" to them - which is based on how they were raised. Human beings have a capacity for empathy, and most people are raised with some part of that capacity active. Most moral behavior flows from that.

Certainly nothing we do Matters(TM) in the cosmic sense. But that doesn't mean immorality doesn't matter to you. As mentioned, you will have a much different life if you screw people over than if you are nice and develop a support network for yourself. Furthermore, there is a difference between "amoral" and "immoral". And what is "immoral" for many believers is just "amoral" as far as I'm concerned. If someone wants to live a life of hedonistic sex and drugs, but doesn't hurt anybody in the process, what do I care? If it makes 'em happy...

Jamie