Freethought & Rationalism Archive

scumble · 07-25-2003, 05:16 AM

I'm just after some comments on some notes I've been making...

Quote:

The doctrine emerges from the story of Adam in Genesis.

The problem I have with this is actually on a very tiny moment in the story, and that is the part where Eve decides to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. The Theological consenus seems to be that Adam was continually in the presence of God, shortly after creation. This is most likely considerably similar to the state of heaven. In this case, Adam should be naturally disposed to be obedient to God, as many Theologians maintain. In the garden of eden, all was good.
But if this is true, why would Adam suddenly decide to disobey the Lord?
The appearance of the serpent does not help much, really, because Adam ought not to consider the claims of the serpent, because his natural tendency was towards God.
"Before he had sinned, Adam naturally sought out God. After he sinned, Adam tried to hide from God. His nature had changed."
How can a rational mind connect the before and after? If it was Adam's nature to submit to God, how did he manage the sin? If Adam's original condition is ideal, why would he listen to the words of a Serpent and destroy his relationship with God?
Those who claim the world is "broken" can only have difficulty in explaining how Adam managed to commit any sin at all in the first place.

It just occurred to me when reading about the doctrine today.

CaptainOfOuterSpace · 07-25-2003, 05:36 AM

Firstly, supposedly Adam was given 'free will' (although there's little evidence of this in the text).

Secondly, Adam didn't realize that he was "sinning." Remember that Adam did not know about good and evil yet; he only finds out after he eats the fruit. Before he ate from the tree, Adam could not have had judgment over right and wrong. So, really, God punishes Adam and Eve for absolutely nothing, because they simply didn't know what they were doing.

scumble · 07-25-2003, 06:32 AM

But Adam is supposed to be choosing to obey God. He can't have lost anything if he was just as likely to be disobedient. That's really the crux of what I'm getting at. Even if there was a slight tendency to sin, it still "Falls short of the glory of God".

SignOfTheCross · 07-25-2003, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaptainOfOuterSpace
Firstly, supposedly Adam was given 'free will' (although there's little evidence of this in the text).

Secondly, Adam didn't realize that he was "sinning." Remember that Adam did not know about good and evil yet; he only finds out after he eats the fruit. Before he ate from the tree, Adam could not have had judgment over right and wrong. So, really, God punishes Adam and Eve for absolutely nothing, because they simply didn't know what they were doing.

I like it how you tried to make an arguement out of a rebuttal. Adam and Eve did realise they were sinning, but not that they were doing wrong.

Peace,
SOTC

CaptainOfOuterSpace · 07-25-2003, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross
Adam and Eve did realise they were sinning, but not that they were doing wrong.

What's the difference?

CaptainOfOuterSpace · 07-25-2003, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scumble
But Adam is supposed to be choosing to obey God. He can't have lost anything if he was just as likely to be disobedient. That's really the crux of what I'm getting at. Even if there was a slight tendency to sin, it still "Falls short of the glory of God".

But didn't God create humans with the express purpose of them being imperfect? If God wanted someone as perfect as himself, can't he just create another god to keep him company?

scumble · 07-25-2003, 08:03 AM

The question is merely how man can be created to be in perfect harmony with God, and suddenly disobey him for no particular reason. Theologians (amateur or otherwise) claim something was lost by Adam's sin. As far as I can tell, there's no sign of Adam deliberating over whether he should eat the friut. Eve just hands it to him and he eats it. It confuses the claim that Adam and Eve were somehow "better".

CaptainOfOuterSpace · 07-25-2003, 08:12 AM

Ah, I see now.

Well then, since Eve was the only one that actually thought about whether to eat the fruit or not, it must be all her fault. Therefore, women must always be in subordinate positions to men.

CJD · 07-25-2003, 10:59 AM

Quote:

scumble wrote:
The doctrine emerges from the story of Adam in Genesis.

The problem I have with this is actually on a very tiny moment in the story, and that is the part where Eve decides to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. The Theological consenus seems to be that Adam was continually in the presence of God, shortly after creation. . . . In this case, Adam should be naturally disposed to be obedient to God, as many Theologians maintain. In the garden of eden, all was good.

But if this is true, why would Adam suddenly decide to disobey the Lord?
The appearance of the serpent does not help much, really . . .

Stop. The first point here does not quite add up to the story in the text. In Genesis 2:15 we see God giving Adam the charge to till and keep the garden of Eden. The tilling part is obvious�work is given to the man as a gift, not a punishment (the weeds were the punishment). But that's not really related to your thesis. The "keep it" bit, however, is. This charge entails guarding the garden from encroachment. So, the two keepers of the garden should have driven the serpent out; instead the serpent (indirectly) drives them out.

The appearance of the serpent, then, does help us understand what's going on. So, something happened that undermined the whole thing even before the fruit was eaten. Sure, Adam was naturally disposed to good, but "naturally disposed" does not mean he could not do otherwise (as CaptainOfOuterSpace mentioned). The only evidence needed that shows man's moral capacity to choose is found in the subsequent verse (2:16), "And the LORD God commanded . . ." The freedom to choose is assumed, or else the "command" to obey is meaningless. I gather the kind of freedom here described is widely misunderstood. Suffice to say, it is not "libertarian" freedom but "compatibilist" freedom in view here. Another point is that it must be conceded that God did not create the universe as perfectly (at least as what we would deem "perfect") as he could have (Why? I don't know. Ask him.). For whatever reason(s), he left the door open to things transpiring as they have. This is not an indictment on my part (though I would expect it to be from an atheist's pov), I am more than happy to go on leaving "the secret things to the LORD our God" and could care less if that satisfies you (Deut. 29:29). I gather in all of this, scumble, that you misunderstand the notion that creation was fashioned less-than-perfect.

Finally, this . . .

Quote:

Adam didn't realize that he was "sinning." Remember that Adam did not know about good and evil yet; he only finds out after he eats the fruit. Before he ate from the tree, Adam could not have had judgment over right and wrong. So, really, God punishes Adam and Eve for absolutely nothing, because they simply didn't know what they were doing.

. . . is asinine, being based on a rather silly understanding of what the Tree symbolized.

Regards,

CJD

mike_decock · 07-25-2003, 11:52 AM

God created man as a worker:

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Note that this is parallel to the Babylonian Genesis, the Enuma Elish, in which man is created to do the work of the Gods.

Eating from the tree of knowledge is not why God expelled A&E:

Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Gen 3:23
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

They were cast out because God didn't want man to have both knowledge of good & evil as well as eternal life.

-Mike...

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07-25-2003, 05:36 AM	#2
CaptainOfOuterSpace Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Posts: 137	Firstly, supposedly Adam was given 'free will' (although there's little evidence of this in the text). Secondly, Adam didn't realize that he was "sinning." Remember that Adam did not know about good and evil yet; he only finds out after he eats the fruit. Before he ate from the tree, Adam could not have had judgment over right and wrong. So, really, God punishes Adam and Eve for absolutely nothing, because they simply didn't know what they were doing.

07-25-2003, 06:32 AM	#3
scumble Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 279	But Adam is supposed to be choosing to obey God. He can't have lost anything if he was just as likely to be disobedient. That's really the crux of what I'm getting at. Even if there was a slight tendency to sin, it still "Falls short of the glory of God".

07-25-2003, 08:03 AM	#7
scumble Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 279	The question is merely how man can be created to be in perfect harmony with God, and suddenly disobey him for no particular reason. Theologians (amateur or otherwise) claim something was lost by Adam's sin. As far as I can tell, there's no sign of Adam deliberating over whether he should eat the friut. Eve just hands it to him and he eats it. It confuses the claim that Adam and Eve were somehow "better".

07-25-2003, 08:12 AM	#8
CaptainOfOuterSpace Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Posts: 137	Ah, I see now. Well then, since Eve was the only one that actually thought about whether to eat the fruit or not, it must be all her fault. Therefore, women must always be in subordinate positions to men.

07-25-2003, 11:52 AM	#10
mike_decock Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 1,505	God created man as a worker: Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Note that this is parallel to the Babylonian Genesis, the Enuma Elish, in which man is created to do the work of the Gods. Eating from the tree of knowledge is not why God expelled A&E: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. They were cast out because God didn't want man to have both knowledge of good & evil as well as eternal life. -Mike...

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