Odemus

How so?
Even if their relationship was sexually open there still remains the fact that this woman is covertly shopping around for someone else to provide the same security she remains in her present relationship for. Throwing a sexually open relationship into the equation doesn't negate the fact that she is still being dishonest about her intentions.

cjack

Elaborate, please.

Are you donating sperm to someone so that they can have a conceive? If so, then that is not cheating at all.

Or are you in an open relationship where you have both agreed to allow multiple partners? If so, then that is also not cheating, although it might be in conflict with the standard marriage vows.


Back to the original topic, we need to know if there is an agreement between the woman dshimel is interested in and her current boyfriend regarding multiple partners. If they have agreed not to see other people, then she needs to end the relationship before moving on.

I don't find this to be "19th century" at all, unless honesty is no longer considered valuable.

Odemus

I couln't disagree more. The love my wife and I share has grown exponentially from where it started. It is because we have both honored our vows to eachother and worked through some of the worst times imaginable that we have come through to the other side much better off then where we started. The love shown through personal sacrifice and duty to one's moral obligations is far greater than the shallow infatuation at the start of a relationship. My marriage is a living example of this truth.

Jamie_L

Odemus:

The question in the OP was just about whether the 3rd party was morally wrong if the 1st party is "cheating". If the woman is not morally "cheating", then there is no moral culpability of the 3rd party. That's all I'm saying.

Well, for starters, you're assuming facts not in evidence. Second, it's not necessarily morally wrong to use money as a measuring stick for relationships. As you say, it's only a moral issue if she pretends she's not after money, when she is. But even if SHE is being immoral in this way, it doesn't lead to 3rd party immorality, which again, was the question in the OP.

Jamie

Odemus

Jaimie:

What I am saying is that since most of us agree that the moral issue in the OP (original post?) revolves around dishonesty, it is in fact the dishonesty itslef which is the focus of our attention more than sex. All I am saying is that given the same scenario save for an open sexual relationship between this woman and her current live-in boyfriend there still remains the fact that there would be an element of dishonesty to her actions. This woman has indicated a few things that she obviously doesn't want to disclose to her live-in boyfriend. For example, this guy is entitled to know that his girlfriend is about to cut of their relationship before she disingenuously milks him any further.

Jamie_L

Odemus:

On that topic, I think you are assuming things without sufficient evidence. We simply don't have all the facts to start talking specifically about what this woman is/isn't being honest about except for the fact that she is obviously being immoral when it comes to the issue of monogamy with her BF. Dshimel has more info than we do on stuff like that, so he's a better judge than we.

But you're right in that this woman clearly has at least one honesty/integrity issue, and there are hints of others. If dshimel is wise, he ought to consider things carefully.

Jamie

dangin

Yeah, something like that. I'm impregnating a lesbian who has slept with both my wife and I. She is now in a relationship with another woman, who I approve of. She is financially solid, with an excellent education. I think she is smart, creative, and caring. She'll make a great mom, and our genes should make a smart, creative kid.

And marriage vows are poetry, say them and you are not married, signing a legal document makes you married. There is nothing in that legal document about sex.

Vows don't matter over the course of time anyway, it's what you have established in your relationship that matters.

dangin

So much for our agreeing.

Thanks for the anecdote. I think reality plays out differently for most. In fact, I think your "true love" of a lifetime ideal is a dangerous thing to fill people's head with. First of all, we don't know it is true. Second of all, you might think it is true, but really your wife is fucking somebody else that you don't know about. Third, these big loves (while they do happen I think) are rare and often lead people to lose out on perfectly acceptable relationships while they quest for something they will never find.

Your experience aside, I think the best advice to any new couple is make sure you've been around enough to know you can settle down if that is what you want. And make sure you enjoy each other's company, because love fades. Friendship, good conversation, good senses of humor, and similar interests make for lasting relationships whether it be marriage or just friends.

Oh yeah, and hot steamy sex.

cjack

Well, it takes different strokes...


I disagree about the marriage vows, though. Marriage is part ceremony/part legal contract. The legal document itself doesn't make you "married" in any but the strictest of terms (being nothing more than a simple contract), while the vows carry little or no legal weight. So I would argue that it is the combination of the two that makes a person "married" to someone else initially. Whether or not both parties carry out their promises throughout the course of the relationship determines whether or not the marriage is successful.

After all, a marriage vow is just a promise made in front of witnesses and some state-sanctioned official.

Bringing it back to the OP, we need to establish whether or not the woman in question made a promise or committment to her boyfriend not to see other people, and if she is keeping the relationship with dshimel secret from him.

Again, the issue is really dishonesty, and whether or not dshimel is engaged in an immoral activity by being involved.

dangin

Yes, I agree that in our society, most people would think that sleeping with someone in another relationship is any of the words being bandied about. (immoral, wrong, cheating, lying, what have you)

But I think the sexual practices of our society are kind of fucked. Our closest animal relatives use sex as a socializing tool. Female chimps will have sex with seven males in 48 hours, and will have sex over 70 times a week during estrous. Does this engender jealousy? No, it actually helps her gain food. (the males share the best food with the females they sleep with), and protects her children, (all the males think they have a chance of being the father, so they won't hurt the child).

Our own desires to seek out multiple partners(on the part of males) and the best partners (which also means multiple) on the part of females, and our statistically low rate of life long monogamy, combined with our statistically high rate of infidelity implies to me that we are not so dissimilar no matter what culture tells us.

I'm not ashamed to live the way I was programmed by nature because that programming was successful. I think that trying to live up to the "ideal" of monogamy is actually something that leads people to be more fucked up than a realistic/naturalistic sexual worldview.