Amos

Hi Keith, SIN is the key word and it looks like Mrs. Eddy just ran a social club without a plot because sin is needed if salvation is to be end of the game.

Keith Russell

Amos:

I disagree.

'Sin' is most definitely not needed.

Neither is 'salvation'.

Work to improve one's self is its own reward.

Keith.

Amos

Are you trying to tell me here that there is no God beside the Lord? I never read Isaiah but it seems to me that the Lord here is just saying that there is no salvation except through the Lord and that he was the cause of it right from the start. It is much the same as we say that there is no salvation except in Christ the son who himself did not become fully one with God until just prior to assention.

Amos

Keith, I agree. Sin is only needed if salvation is desired. There is nothing wrong with freedom from religion. The problem you see begins with freedom of religion.

capnkirk

Any xtian who considers these to be two separate entities cannot claim to be monotheistic! But then they already believe in a trinity and don't see any conflict so what's the problem with one more deity!?!

MrDarwin

This is all getting quite a bit away from the original point, which is why the devil did what it did or will do, whether or not God allowed and allows the devil to do what it has done and will do, whether or not God knew and knows the devil would do what it did and will do, and whether or not God wanted and wants the devil to do what it has done and will do.

If sin is necessary for salvation, and God wants us to be saved, then the logical conclusion is that God does, indeed, want the devil to do everything it has done.

Keith Russell

Mr. Darwin, allow me to clear things up.

There is no 'God'.

There is no 'Devil'.

There is no 'sin'.

There is no 'salavation'.

(And, none of the above are needed, either.)

Keith.

Gary Welsh

Let's just let Amos do his own thing. I don't even understand what he's saying, or how it relates to my original point.

MrDarwin seems to understand what I'm talking about.

Keith, I agree with you, in that I don't believe in gods or devils, either. But the point I wanted to address was the tension between (1) belief in the existence of an omnibenevolent God and (2) evil being created by God -- or at least the option and/or desire to do evil being created by God. I am addressing the theist's belief, not mine or yours.

Sometimes the answer is glibly given as "free will," as if uttering that simple term somehow dispels the entire problem of evil as easily as pricking a soap bubble with a sharp pin. As if I'm supposed to then respond:

"Oh, yes, 'Free will' -- that explains everything, quite neatly. Why didn't I see it before?"

But I don't respond that way. I don't find a theist mumbling "free will" and then happily skipping off is very satisfying. Not from where I'm standing. Free will often seems to muddle the matter, not clear it up. After all, it's about as ambiguous a term as one can use in all of philosophy. I often hear variations of the following, which I only find confusing, not enlightening:

"Our actions are caused by our will, which is free. Our will is itself uncaused -- we create it the moment we create it, ex nihilo. And that's that!"

Yes, how simple.

As to the question about the quote in the Bible for God's omnibenevolence, I don't have one on hand. Perhaps someone else can provide it. I was addressing one of the qualities that theologians typically assign to the Western God-concept, not a specific Biblical passage.

MrDarwin

Gary, you've put your finger on one of the biggest conflicts in Christian theology: whether an omniscient creator is ultimately responsible for the actions of his/her/its creations. Most Christians glibly point to free will, either on our part or on the part of the devil, while ignoring the fact that by their own theology God knew exactly, down to the most minute detail, each and every thing the devil would do even before creating the creature.

To get around this I've seen some Christians try to redefine "omniscient" so that God doesn't know quite everything that will happen. To which I reply, how then do they know God will triumph in the end? Or they redefine "evil" such that, if God sets in motion something that will result in evil, and that God knows will result in evil, but God does not actually do the evil acts, then God's actions are not evil. ("But your honor, I can't possibly be guilty of murder! I specifically hired somebody else to kill my wife!")

One of my favorite questions, and one which Christians either ignore entirely or wiggle mightily to answer, is this: can God do anything that has unintended consequences? Because that's what it all boils down to, no?

Keith Russell

Greetings:

Again, the Bible clearly states that 'God' creates evil, and there are numerous claims that certain 'evil spirits' were 'sent by 'God''.

Keith.