Jamie_L

What makes Free Will (TM) so important?

What is God's goal? Well, one goal seems to be a heaven populated by those people that (supposedly) "choose him freely". Of course, when they all get to heaven, they'll get the soul labotamy that allows them all to live in heaven without doing evil. I.E. - everybody's free will to do evil goes away.

Well, what actually happens (according to Christian teachings)? First, God creates a bunch of people with Free Will. Then he sees which ones choose him. Then he dispatches the rest to non-existence or eternal torture (depending on your flavor of imortality). The rest, he keeps.

In the end, he has effectively created only people who believe in him. He just used a random generator and a filtering process to get there. Why waste all that time? Why not just directly make people who want to choose him? Why the whole filtering nonsense?

For that matter, when God sat around and thought about creating everyone, he certainly would have known which ones were going to give him the metaphorical finger. Why didn't he just skip making them and only make the rest. Again, skipping the filtering process.

I'm rambling, I know. But I just don't get it.

Jamie

hastalavista2u

>Well,just for useless 'arguments sake'(TM),I'll put myself in your shoes,so to speak.
Here goes...

'I don't believe in God...but why is He,I mean why does the Bible make Him seem so unfair?
I don't believe in freewill,but why did He,I mean the Bible create it?
I would really like to know why this cruel, omniscient God I don't believe in can be so...well cruel?
Why didn't He create me so I too can believe as do those annoying Christians I hate so much?
That way I could also be hated like Christ was...er,I mean we ALL could be,LOVED by God and one another...wait I'm confusing myself...this is only fairy tale talk,so why am I entertaining these ideas??
Wait a minute,I'm an atheist,my conscious has no right to question my motives or my choices,so get back in the sub-conscious part of my brain where you belong...so I can once more become oblivious to any concepts of Faith(TM) and hope in eternal life!
Anyway,I've had enough of this make-believe delusion...for now anyway?!'

Ok me again...
One thing infidels may have in their favor is the so-called 'second chance'(TM)
scenario.
I mean,no where in the Bible does it specifically mention anything about--
'if you die an atheist you AUTOMATICALLY go straight to Hell'!
Then again,no sciptures say you won't,so neither can I,technically speaking.
But I can point out trivial matters such as what i've already done.
The way I see it,seeing a make-believe God as unfair,is like me seeing Santa Claus as mean because he gave everyone presents but me.
Sorry for bringing such a juvenile,IMMATURE analogy into the picture,as I'm sure you all would never do?
Even though you ought to...(in your shoes again)--
'cause bad analogies only work for me,and not for believers.'

But seriously(not really)--
Why should you be so concerned or even curious about the big 'WHY's' of religion in general?
Maybe in hopes that some bright morning I will
'wake up' and smell the coffee...literally?
All of a sudden it will hit me...THEYwere right after all,why didn't I see??

But since I can't think of anything else that an atheist's mind might be thinking,or of anything I could say that would make a difference,I'll shut up...for now anyway. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Butters

Damn right Jamie!

But the problem is deeper than just that.
If the Christian God is real, then we DON'T have free will. God is omniscient, he knows all things past, present ,and future. He knew BEFORE he created me, that I would not believe in him. (He also had the ecge of createing me like I am, and even without knowing the future, would know what I would or would not believe.
If God knew I would go to hell before he even made me, I have no choice in the matter. Man is not greater than God. Man cannot thwart God's plan. I have no choice, I'm going to hell. I cannot "open my heart to Jesus", because God already knows that I won't, so therefore, I can't.

And if one Christian comes across with the "God knows the future, but he is not the author of it", I'm going to reach through the screen and strangle them!

God created everything. God knew what the outcome of everything would be before he even created it, since there was no one else around, yes, he was the author!

At least the Calvinist's have enough nads to say this.

Wyz_sub10

This doesn't reflect an atheist position in the least.

It isn't a matter of not liking a situation or wishing god had done this or that.

Rather, it's a question of logic to believers - if you define god using parameters of all-powerful and all-loving, and it is possible for free will to result in a very unfavourable situation for his creations, than why have it?

The question goes to reconciling the Christian defition of god and the possibility of eternal damnation. It has nothing to do with critiquing the world as it is.

Well, you're certainly confusing me. Atheists do not seek love from a god they don't believe exists.

Non-sequitur and, I might add, incorrect. What does conscious thought have to do with wondering why god wants free will?

Speaking for myself, my conscious thought plays a critical role in my motives and actions. Doesn't yours?

I'm not oblivious to the concept of faith. I doubt any intelligent person is.

What exactly does this have to do with the original question, by the way?

This is a thing in our favour according to you. Of course, I think you're wrong and certainly don't think this is a thing at all, much less 'in my favour'.

Are you planning on addressing free will any time during the pointing out of trivial - and admittedly baffling - matters?

Atheists think god is 'make believe', but not 'unfair' (because if he is make-believe. he cannot really *be* anything).

The critique falls not on god for being unfair, but on the Christian concept of god for being inconsistent and illogical.

Speaking for myself, I live in what we call a 'society'. And a society often has competing interests. Often these competing interests manifest themselves in laws or public policies or behaviours, etc. It helps to understand the other people in your society and what motivates their interests if you want to work towards a society that's manageable.

Plus, I get curious. Don't you?

I don't really hope anything for you, to be honest. But I do think that everyone should be true to themselves. Part of being true to oneself is to try and take an objective look at why you believe as you do every now and again.

I'm not sure you thought of anything that would be in an atheist's mind to begin with. Then again, there are a lot of atheists in the world, so maybe you did. Who knows?

I was hoping that somewhere in your post you would actually address the topic at hand.

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Wyz_sub10 ]</p>

hastalavista2u

&gt;Well 'WYZ',i don't really know why you would want me to reply to a topic you seem to think I know little about??
Obviously,I am for the most part wrong about what atheists are thinking,even though I am VERY
curious about it.
I am even willing to make a stab at it,perhaps in maybe getting a partial confirmation from someone that I am getting warm?

But honestly,atheist thinking truly baffles me,since it seems possible to disbelieve yet still have hope for some form of life after death with some form of God.
Yet it seems many atheists are not only content with their fate but would probably shun eternal life if it were available,with a 'veangeful' God that is.
Or perhaps this is one area where they would disagree,but not divide over?

This greatly confuses me,but regarding the original question of 'why does God care about free will',I am uncertain of what is being asked?
But one thing I do believe is that it hinges more on what the unbeliever possesses than on what I would possess.
Which is,as a previous poster put it--'nads'!
Meaning you have the guts to view things anyway you would like,as i see it.
You choose to trust your own human instincts,and dare another to prove you wrong for doing so.
Perhaps even one's 'natural' tendencies are more
rational than a supernatural alternative.
But what makes it more logical?

Point being,there is no logic to the suffering in this world,and evolution being the foundation for it.
And if the alternative is just as illogical,then what makes one more viable than the other?
What us higher lifeforms see as logic differ greatly from the lower forms.
If you hunt and kill an animal to survive,how rational does the animal see this behaviour as?

OK,bottom line--it's true God could have
created you anyway He chose to.
But if He didn't,and you conclude a loving God could't do that,then why not just confidently stick to your guns about it,and what you pretty much KNOW to be true,at least for you?
Why the need to systematically debate and debunk any and all religious theories and jargon?

And if I can believe,then why can't a fellow human believe?
Granted we are inherently distinct in our psych makeups,but still share,as you even put it,the concept of faith and hope,even if in differing things.
What I don't understand is why my own perspective of faith so different from your's?
And how do either of us know for certain just who's view if either is wrong?
Well,at least you may understand somewhat the origins and foundation of my faith,but i've still no clue as to why your's would go no further than in what you can only see and feel?
But if you have even the slightest notion that you could have somehow been created with such a fault as a lack of belief in your Creator,then it would seem you,like myself,would have just enough to trust in those instincts just as you would the natural one's.

So maybe you have won this argument on this basis,
but then you didn't really need my input to prove your point(s),unless like myself you to are curious?
As to the big 'WHY's'...but then aren't we all?
And 'why' ask questions we know can't be answered...why indeed??

[ December 06, 2002: Message edited by: Theitist ]</p>

Wyz_sub10

I did not say you knew little about the topic.

I did say that you seem to know little about what atheists believe, and that I was puzzled you did not address the topic at hand.

I certainly can appreciate curiosity, and while I could not speak for other atheists, I would be delightted to provide my take on whether you were getting 'warm'.

No, I think you are missing a really, really key point - atheists do not believe in life after death, and the certainly do not believe in any form of god. It is possible that one *hopes* for life after death, but hoping does not make it so. I could hope to win the lottery and live the life of Riley, but I hold no serious expectation that I will.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily. If there were a compelling reason to believe that if I did 'x' I could have blissful eternal life, then I probably would. Some would disagree with me and say they would never want to serve a vengeful god. But it is only waxing philosophic because we do not believe god exists.

This stems from other discussions where the necessity of free will was invoked to explain the necessity of evil.

I believe the question here related to why free will is employed by god, and what makes this "better" than just being created to be blissfully happy, even if it did eliminate free will.

I don't view things anyway I like. I try to view things as they are based on the evidence around me. This includes my instincts, but also includes testable theories, logic, the confirmations of others, things that can be measured and agreed upon...many things.

If it was just my instincts against your instincts, then I would not expect to 'win'. I don't think my instincts are superior to yours.

There is logic to some of the suffering in this world. Being 'logical' doesn't mean being 'good' or 'right' or 'acceptable'. It is logical that someone might cause suffering if they were to benefit from it. This does not make it good or right.

Evolution is not the foundation for suffering, although some biological suffering can be linked to processes that form during evolution (but evolution did not cause them, as if it were an entity making decisions).

Our understanding of our surroundings is much deeper than that of lower life forms, but much of our basic logic - cause and effect, fight or flight - is the same as the lower life forms.

A zoologist may be able to answer this better than me. I will guess it doesn't evaluate this behaviour at all. If it feels threatened it "fights or flies". If not, it is likely not too concerned.

I do confidently stick to my guns. If new evidence presents itself, I may change my 'guns'. But for what I know at this time, I am very comfortable in what I believe to be true.

To gain an understanding, I think. If you were to say, "I believe in god as 'x', and I cannot provide more than my intuition, but I believe it's true."

Well, that's your choice. But if you say homosexuality is bad or abortions should be illegal or teachers should lead prayer in school, then it becomes important to challenge your beliefs because you are trying to apply them beyond yourself.

My mom's a big believer. I support her right to believe what she likes, even though I do not agree with her. But that doesn't mean we'll baptize our children because of it.

I don't think your perspective of faith is necessarily different from mine. But I simply do not need faith in a god to feel my life (or your life) is important or meaningful. Maybe you don't *need* it either. I don't know.

My view doesn't run contrary to the world around me. The Christian view does, in many ways. Plus it relies on many stories that are false - like Adam and Eve, and Noah's Ark. God and heaven are not disprovable, of course. But if you assign attributes to god that can be disproven, that is where the problem occurs.

I can't see my wife's love, but I believe it's there. I suppose I can feel it, but it is not tangible. So I would say my faith does go beyond touch or feel. But I know my wife exists, and I have reason to believe she loves me. I cannot say the same for a god.

I know for a fact that I can, indeed, have faith in a creator. I was a Christian for 25 years. My lack of belief does not stem from my inability to trust or have faith, but from the fact that I see n reason to believe in god any more than I do to believe that rain is angels crying.

This thread isn't necessarily about proving a point about faith - I think it's just trying to gain an understanding if the Christian perspective of why free will is a 'good' thing.

Because you can learn a lot about the answers given, whether they are right or wrong.

[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: Wyz_sub10 ]</p>

abe smith

Response to JAMIE L.'s OP here:
"god" WHO?

Stephen T-B

Wyz_sub10 covered the ground so expertly and with such clarity and courtesy that I am wary of coming in and spoiling the effect, but I cannot resist remarking upon Theitist’s insistence, which we see time and time again from Believers, that Atheists secretly believe in god and an after-life but are congenitally incapable of admitting it.
He cannot grasp that atheists are genuinely puzzled by the Christian’s ability to ignore the inconsistencies and contradictions entailed in Belief and which, to the atheist, present unsurmountable obstacles.
One of these “unsurmountable obstacles” is raised by Jamie_L in his OP.
Theitist, please do not assume that because you’re in a cupboard under the stairs and perfectly happy there that the rest of humanity wants to be in there too. There are many other rooms in this mansion!
(I like the one I’m in because there’s no danger of banging my head every time I want to stand up and stretch.)

[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: Stephen T-B ]</p>

schu

The impossibility of free will with an all-knowing all-powerful god is what makes it important.

Can any Christian answer this question? If the big daddy up in the sky is all-powerful and all-knowing how can we not be his robots? If the story is true, he made us just the way he wanted us. He knew when he made us everything that would happen to us. Being all-knowing and all-powerful how can anything we do be anything but what he wanted? If he knew at the creation every iota of your life how can it be changed? What could be different? A human like you can change what god allready knows will happen? If he doesn't know what will happen, then you can have free will, but he cannot be all-knowing. A Catholic made a laughable attempt to answer this question for me. Now it is your turn. Either you can answer the question coherently or stop this free will BS. If your god is real we are all robots. If we have free will than your god can't be what it is claimed in the bible he is. Which is it?

"Either we are not free and God the all-powerful is responsible for evil. Or we are free and responsible but God is not all-powerful. All the scholastic subtleties have neither added anything to nor subtracted anything from the acuteness of this paradox." --Albert Camus

Jamie_L

Well, these days I don't think omniscience NECESSARILY denies free will. In most scenarios it does, but it seems logically possible for God to give us "free will" by involving some element of randomness in our creation process. Being omnipotent, generating randomness should be no problem.

However, this still results in:
1) God KNOWS what our free choices will be and still chooses to create those who will disobey him. Thus, he effectively chooses to create someone he knows he will punish.
2) God holds us responsible for a random set of initial conditions over which we had no control. Neither of these results seem very benevolent.

Jamie