Veil of Fire

I'm just not sure there were even 9 million people in all of Europe at the time, especially right after the plague!

Mecha: Maybe!

Perchance: I hate those web sites. Sadly, Wiccans hop onto the dogma train just as fast as Christians, primarily because most of them have heavy Christian backgrounds and would be lost without some sort of indisputable Truth backing them up.

excreationist

BTW, this would be the main verse to justify the killing of witches:

Exodus 22:18 - "Do not allow a sorceress to live." (NIV) (The KJV uses the term "witch")

I thought the Spanish Inquisition would have been where most of the witches were killed but according to <a href="http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition" target="_blank">Wikipedia</a>, "it is estimated that around 32,000 people were burnt alive during the entire 340 years of the Inquisition's existence" and many of those were Jews or "Moors" (Muslims).

From <a href="http://www.gendercide.org/case_witchhunts.html" target="_blank">gendercide.org</a>:

Veil of Fire

And this is proof of two things:

(A) King James Version is hideously (purposely?) mistranslated, and
(B) Every other 'new' translation just goes back to the King James.

The actual hebrew word in that verse, something like chasaf IIRC, means "one who poisons a well".

excreationist

Veil of Fire:
It seems that the word there is the Hebrew word <a href="http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03784&version=" target="_blank">Kashaph</a>.

That Hebrew word also appears other times in the Bible - e.g.

2 Chronicles 33:6b - "...and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger."

Daniel 2:2 - "Then the king gave the command to call the magicians, the astrologers, the sorcerers, and the <a href="http://bible.crosswalk.com/Concordances/NavesTopicalBible/ntb.cgi?number=T1046" target="_blank">Chaldeans</a> to tell the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king."

Malachi 3:5a - "And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers...."

Do you know of any Bible translations that don't talk about a female sorcerer/witch in Exodus 22:18? Most Bible translations look at the original manuscripts and translate that text themselves - rather than just copy the KJV - which is often based on later manuscripts. (e.g. the KJV includes an extra part at the end of Mark that isn't found in earlier manuscripts, etc) Translations such as the NIV and the Good News Bible (TEV) point this out but include the text in brackets.

Another example is 1 John 5:7-8.

The NIV says this:
"For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

In its footnote it says this: "5:7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)"

Here is the KJV:
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

I've got a friend who is studying theology for 3 years and he can even learn Biblical Hebrew in his course - as well as Greek and Latin... so it doesn't sound that hard for new Bible translations to just translate the verses right from the source. The thing about the OT is that there are two (main?) versions - the Hebrew one and the Greek Septuagint... (there's also a Latin version) they have their differences... the Hebrew version was translated into the Greek version, and the Latin Vulgate is based on the Greek and Hebrew versions...

I don't know of any evidence that the best English translation for that Hebrew word in that passage is "one who poisons a well" rather than it being about a female who does magic, etc.

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

Egoinos

It seems to be pretty well understood among most members of the pagan community (certainly the ones who read) that there weren't 9 million people killed during the witch mania.

Quite a number of people have taken to refuting it because it annoyed them that people would witter on and on about "nine million", when that was not the case.

On an aside, I wouldn't pay too much attention to the Malleus Maleficarum. Thats not to say it isn't a good source for how witches were tried and understood, but the majority of European countries did not use the Malleus, and many of them thought Sprenger and Kramer to be really peculiar. In Spain, for example, it was not used, and people were not quite so obsessive about killing witches as in Germany, where the Malleus was used. In some countries - such as England - there were rather few witches killed at all, and they were not burnt either. There are a lot of myths floating around about the witch mania, partly because of the efforts of certain 19th Century figures, partly because of modern pagans, and partly because of an over-reliance on Montague Sommers and his stupid translation of the Malleus! Its so easy to get hold of that people automatically assume it was standard, and therefore that misogyny was a presiding feature of the witch mania when it was not to that extent.

stops ranting now

Nataraja

Killing people is just fucked up, that's all there is to it. Damn, I hate Christianity, more hate crimes and genocides from that bunch than any other source, mostly on each other. Hitler, the Inquisitions, the Witchhunts, evolution deniers (a growing bunch of freaking loons) the KKK, the Crusades, the Fall of Rome. Bloody-handed religion, and the blood won't come off. The sick thing is that Lady Macbeth felt remorse, but the Christians just keep pimping their religion and they expect us to give them a pat on the head and tell them it's alright they harmed or massacred billions of people and expect us still to play with their invisible friend. How can people find such a disgusting religion attractive? They don't even feel remorse. I could tolerate its existance if they'd acknowlege the violent history of their religion. That's part of its success, though...they forget almost immedeately their hand in such calamities and even try to shove the blame off on some other group, like saying Hitler was an atheist, the Catholic bastard. How can they be so sick and continue to exist?

Perchance

Nataraja-

I try not to blame all living Christians for the history of their religion, any more than I blame all living Pagans for the stupidity of some people about the nine million number. If they claim that those things didn't happen, of course, or that those things were all for "some greater good," then we have a problem.

I don't think Christianity is inherently bloody; any religion that conquered the planet might have done as much. If Judaism had been a conquering religion, or we had lived in a country conquered by Islam, or if for some reason Hinduism or one of the ancient polytheistic religions had spread, I don't know if atheists would find them any more admirable.

-Perchance.

Amos

If one witch burned was too many, 9,000,000 would be about 9,000,000 to many and nobody willl argue with that. My point here is not how many witches died but what was the reason for the witch hunt and what was it that made witches different than ordinary Catholics or ordinary protestant Christians.

Notice here that Catholics were never identified as Christian but at best were Christians-in-becoming which is not until Catholicism had served them as a means to the end. This end was Christian[ident]ity. In a sense this was much like Jesus who was a Jew and when he became Christian he was no longer a Jew. From this point of view, it is impossible to be Catholic and Christian and hence my "Christian-in-becoming.".

From the imagery we learn that witches can soar on a broom through midheaven. Wiccans cannot do this and so Wiccans are not witches and do not need to worry that they will crash.

The "soaring broom image of witches" is biblical and depicts the bundle of scriptures protestants have gathered for themselves in which they find assurance of salvation and upon this assurance they soar through midheaven while burning daily scriptures to stay afloat (lest they crash in the saved sinner paradox). From this lofty "midheaven" position they shout to others down below:
1)See me soar and if you want to be like me you must come and get saved because the end times are near (paraphrased from Rev.14:6-7)
2)The Catholic Church has fallen who made the believers follow their dogma while keeping from them the scriptures wherein is salvation (v.8).
3)Do not take upon yourself the mark of the beast because you will drink of the wine of God's wrath poured full strenght.

The hree angels proclaiming these passages are actually depictions of the mark of the beast in action and so witches are protestant evangelicals who are trying to lead others to Christ.

Another image is the burning at the stake. Protestants often boast about their wretchedness and many are committed to spend the rest of their days wailing at the foot of the cross while in repentance. It seems that they just oxidize away there and may be prone to spontaneous combustion. Opposite this are the Catholic "incurruptables."

Another image is the brewpot and ladle used to cook up new recipies for salvation. This is where the 20.000 protestant denominations come from and Wiccans are not one of them because they do not burn bible passages to make their plight known.

So witches were not pagans because pagans do not proclaim salvation nor do they lead Catholics to have intercourse with the devil in effort to get reborn from carnal desire (based on Jn.1:13). The difference here lies in the Immaculate Conception as opposed to "breeding the devil" followed by either a Virgin Birth from a benevolent female or a premature rebirth wherein the new creation is from his mother womb "untimely ripped" which was the cause of malevolent Lady MacBeth's sorrow.

It should be stated here that just as heaven and hell are religion specific so is the devil and witches are those that cause others to have intercourse with the devil and send them to hell where they will die nonetheless.

gsx1138

Amos, what the hell was that babble? You went in so many directions it was hard to pick one thing out. Wiccans are or aren't witches? Prodestants are Pagans/Christians? Catholics have sex with flying sheep? See how much sense that makes.
Wiccans are Pagans but not all are Witches. I partake in wiccan and druidic rituals but I do not cast spells thus I do not consider myself a witch. I am Pagan because I put my deity base as a Goddess and a God.

Rusting Car Bumper

Has anyone yet mentioned that most of the "witches" burned or hung were actually Christians? Few (if any) witches were killed.

DC